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141 | Answering Professional Organizers’ Questions with Jen and Melissa

Feb 24

Jen and Melissa are doing what they love–answering professional organizers’ questions about starting your business, managing the CEO mindset, and how to handle peaks and valleys in your journey of entrepreneurship! Nothing is off limits in this chat with members of our Inspired Organizer® group.

We also answer the questions how do we “manage it all” (spoiler alert: we don’t!) and about taking a break from your organizing business.

We love love love talking to organizers, so if you have questions don’t hesitate to send them our way! We’re at and we would love to hear from you. 

If you are interested in our Inspired Organizer® program, you can find us at and don’t forget, we have a whole library of podcasts here, our YouTube channel, and  you can find us on Facebook and Instagram at Pro Organizer Studio.

Another episode you might want to listen to is this one: Episode 99, Intentional Mindset Shifts with Jen Kilbourne.


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Still not sure about starting your own Professional Organizing business? Cick here to read about the 5 things you need to know BEFORE starting your organizing business.

Feeling ready to start? Great! Check out this post on how to start your business stress-free!


You’re listening to the Pro Organizer Studio podcast with Melissa Klug and Jen Kilbourne Obermeier. Thank you so much for joining in our mission is to broaden the horizons of savvy business women in the organizing industry by instilling confidence and inspiring authenticity. You’ll gain new insight into strategies designed specifically for professional organizers.

[00:00:00] You are listening to the Pro Organizer Studio podcast with Melissa Klu and Jen Obermeyer. Thank you so much for joining in. Our mission is to broaden the horizons of savvy business women in the organizing industry. By instilling confidence and inspiring authenticity, you’ll gain new insight into strategies designed specifically for professional organizers.

So now let’s get started.

Hey, pro organizers. It’s Melissa, and today I I’m posting something on the podcast brought to you by me, an organizer cleaning up my digital files.

Um, one of the, you know, we all kind of have these, like, they’re not really dirty little secrets, but my digital. Files are not as organized as I want them to be, and I can’t explain it. Like a couple weeks ago, I just was like, man, I really wanna get my, my computer just cleaned up and organized. It was feeling out of control to me.

And so I have been spending time really cleaning up these digital files, trying to walk the walk, being a professional organizer. And I found this treasure trove of stuff that I had kind of forgotten about if I’m being honest. And one of the things was, Uh, taping of a Facebook Live that Jen and I did with our private inspired organizer group, which by the way, we would love to have you be a part of our inspired organizer family.

It is the loveliest group of women. Occasionally we do these Facebook Lives and we had this recording and people were asking some really great, super relevant questions, um, about mindset, about all sorts of things.

And I’m like, oh my gosh, I have this wonderful gem sitting in front of me and I really wanna share this with our podcast audience. So, Thanks to me cleaning up my nightmare of a computer. We have a great podcast episode for you today. I love to be reminded of these conversations that we had. And the funny thing is, one of the, first discussions you’re going to hear is about someone talking about kind of the CEO mindset and that type of thing.

And what I love about this is I know this woman’s business is now running. Full bore is wildly successful. She’s in a couple of different locations now and it’s just funny to look back and say, oh, we all have these moments of ups and downs, and just a reminder to all of us to ride the waves because something good is on the other side.

So that’s a little spoiler alert for you, but you’re gonna hear some advice that we offered today to our inspired organizers also, if you are interested, we have a one hour free workshop. You can go to po and get that 24 hours a day, seven days a week, whenever you feel like spending an extra hour with us that is there. So we would love to have you see that too. All right, here is a conversation that Jen and I have and I hope that you enjoy it.

Have an awesome day.

[00:02:49] Jen Kilbourne: Well, you guys are amazing. We’re always impressed.

We love this community, everything and the way that everyone takes this content and makes it their own. All right, so with that being said, we did say today we would do sort of like, and ask us anything. I like full disclosure. I know you guys have heard me talk about pretty much every topic under the sun.

This is sort of like a freestyle coaching session and opportunity to just hear from you guys and we’ll just kind of see where this goes so I’ll be reading those questions out for me and Melissa. All right. I’ve got a question from Kenzie kenzie said, I would love to hear your advice from managing slow months and having an abundant slash positive slash c e o mindset despite the low. , then she put a smiley face. I always have things to say about mindset, but Melissa, what would you share about that? 

[00:03:33] Melissa Klug: Yeah.

So a couple of things. First of all, and I know a little bit about kenzie and I came from similar backgrounds where, you know, we were doing one thing over here and then now entrepreneurship is different.

 You can have moments and you can, because you’re by yourself. And it’s hard to manage some of those emotions. So what I would say is it’s important to always keep moving forward. So always keeping some momentum and just saying like, first of all, another client is just around the [00:04:00] corner.

I still have to make sure that I’m doing the work to make sure that they can find me. Mm-hmm. . So I would say ramp up your networking. Try, try a few different things. You might wanna take a look at all of your different processes. It’s a great time for you to focus on how can I streamline my business a little bit for when things get busier again, I just find sometimes, working on your business can actually pay you dividends down the road.

So maybe this quiet time is being brought to. For a reason. by the universe. But keeping a positive mindset in these times is hard because you can start to get pretty negative. So reaching out to whether it’s this group or an accountability partner or someone, I think just to keep that energy up is really important cuz you don’t wanna project that to a potential client.

[00:04:42] Jen Kilbourne: I agree with that. Like when we’re not, when we’re not feeling, not that we have to have like perfect life perfectly in order, but when we’re feeling very chaotic and very out of sorts, that doesn’t project well , that’d be like going to get a massage from somebody who is crying.

Right. Exactly. But you know, it’s like, okay, not that any of us are perfect, but that it is a part of your job to work on. The mindset and also, I mean, this is maybe an unpopular thing to say, or maybe it’s not unpopular.

I mean, everybody’s goals are very different. If you are working on the c e O mindset and your goal is to have not just a full-time job for yourself, but employ many organizers, I mean, that’s really big goal. Other people, their goal is for this to be a part-time thing or for it to be a flexible thing, and they just want the clients there when they need ’em.

And so to say, to say that your slow period is not like anybody else’s because all of us have a very different picture of how much we want to be working and what they want that to, to look like. But what I was saying was, no matter, no matter who you are, what your goal is, like working on your mindset is part of your job.

So that when you are showing up for those clients that it is, it is your best and that you’re not just thinking, how fast can I get outta here so I can get to the next one? Cuz I’m desperate for money. Oh, now I know what I was gonna say. There is no shame in if this is a side hustle and you want it to be a full-time job, but it’s not a full-time job yet, you may want to have another side hustle.

 There is no rule out there that says it only counts if this is the only thing that you do. 

So there is some of that at the beginning and it’s totally normal, and not everybody has the same amount of support or safety net at home. And so, please in, in terms of managing your mindset, do not compare your journey to anybody else’s.

And just know that planting the seeds, and this is something that we talk about a lot, continuing to plant the seeds, even when times are slow, is very important. Because when you’re busy, you’re not gonna have a lot of time to plant those seeds either. But that, I promise, that’s the input that yields later on.

And as long as you know that you are doing those things, it is going to come back in and multiply. Particularly once you start working with clients you know, regularly who are like, a, I either need you forever, or b I want to tell other people about you because you’re, because you’re so. Wonderfully calming and impactful in their home or whatever, you know, scenario that you’re working with them.

So it does start to snowball. It does. And I, and I know Melissa can speak to that too. I mean, you guys came from a similar background, so it’s like, okay, I’ve got a corporate income to replace and maybe a certain level of fear of like, this actually has to like really work for me. It can’t just be a pretend hobby job that doesn’t really profit me.

It, it has to really be an actual excellent, and 

[00:07:30] Melissa Klug: I am a very impatient person. Like I, I want I had to golf years ago for my job and I am the worst golfer that has ever golfed in the history of golf. And I was like, I’m not doing this anymore. I hate it because I. Good at it instantaneously. Right? And so I’m, that’s my mindset.

I’m like, I have to be good at it right away. And so I think if you come from the backgrounds that Kenzie and I have come from, there is a little bit of like, well, why aren’t people just coming out of the woodwork? And it does take time to build. I [00:08:00] mean, Jen didn’t start inspired organizer, and the next day there are 500 people in the group, right?

Like it, you have to build something. And so I think if you’re taking forward steps to build that thing, you know, so you are building you’re building your web presence, you’re building your networking presence. Those seeds, like Jen said, you do not know the day that that is going to come and burst into an 

[00:08:22] Jen Kilbourne: actual plant.

That is totally true. 

[00:08:25] Melissa Klug: Carly Adams had a post recently about someone who saw her on TV in 2019 that just booked with her like last week. Yeah. So it. , it just might take a little bit of patience and a little bit of time, and I totally understand 

[00:08:39] Jen Kilbourne: how hard that is. That just reminded me of somebody else who I did a coaching call with and she said that a woman called her and had her, had her business card on her desk for five years.

Yeah. I was like, see disorganized people, they need follow up. Like you’ve got , like they want you to nag them just a little bit, you know, not, not in a, not in a annoying way, but just like, hey, still thinking about you, wondering how things are going with your blah, blah, blah. I mean, you know, tho those types of things. Another just maybe sort of pr like practical tip is, aim. Aim for the people who have an urgency. Yeah. Like attached to their job. I’m really glad you said that cuz I was 

[00:09:19] Melissa Klug: actually gonna ask you a question related to what Kenzie’s asking because I was wondering if this was like a philosophical difference that we could have a big fight 

[00:09:26] Jen Kilbourne: about.

Just kidding who, okay. Yeah, yeah. Great. But I was 

[00:09:28] Melissa Klug: gonna talk about the concept of, so it goes back to goals. So what is your goal for your business? And if your goal for your business businesses, I ha this is my full-time job, I have to work and I have to create income. You might have to take some jobs that maybe aren’t in your ideal client avatar.

And if you say no, my ideal client is the most important thing to me and I only wanna work with moms who have kids that have toys that are out of control. If you want to niche down, that’s totally fine. Mm-hmm. , but you also need to recognize it may take you longer to build that. Your ideal client is crazy important.

But if your goals say I need to get jobs booked, then you might need to say, I’m willing to take moving jobs. Even though that’s not my ideal, I’m willing to go on Thumbtack. Even though that’s not my ideal. I’m willing to 

[00:10:17] Jen Kilbourne: what? You may have to work with other work with other organizers locally. They have to like just to keep your hands moving cuz it does the contract.

Yeah. Stay, stay, stay. Feeling valuable. Yeah. 

[00:10:28] Melissa Klug: You know it’s not sacrificing your vision for your business, but it is al also recognizing I’m playing the long game and I’m going to, I’m going to win the battle so that I can also win the war. So 

[00:10:42] Jen Kilbourne: I love that and I think that was very fitting. 

Okay. Charlotte. Hello Charlotte. She said, hi there. Have you ladies ever had a moment at the beginning of your business where you just had to step away for a week or two 

in parenthesis she said overwhelmed or dealing with something in your personal world or just couldn’t function? I would like to answer this . 

[00:10:59] Melissa Klug: The answer 

[00:10:59] Jen Kilbourne: is yes. Charlotte, yes. , let me rewind way back actually to when I started my organizing business which was been in, is that was in 2014.

So we are talking, this is very vivid in my memory is what I’m trying to say, , is that there’s a period of like, I think a lot of energy and excitement that goes into making a website and getting your first few clients and getting, I got like a couple of little local magazine feature things and I’m like, wow, this is crazy.

I work so hard, look how things are going. And I’m like, oh, that’s, this is so easy. Not thinking like everything forever’s gonna be easy, but I was just like, the minute that I kind of slowed down a little bit, I was like unbelievably tired. I mean, just this, this, and it was right at the holidays too. So I just remember thinking like I.

I mean, to your point, it was not just dealing with something specific in my personal world, it was just sort of a realization of, [00:12:00] oh my gosh, I’ve been doing this all by myself and that’s amazing.

But like, it’s like looking down when you’re like afraid of heights and all of a sudden you go, oh my gosh, like I’ve been doing the thing. But now I’ve realized that, again, this goes back to what I always say about like, taking care of yourself and make sure you don’t get burned out and that you’re not burning the candle at both ends.

Cuz when you realize you have this energy margin that is actually super small, then you realize like, oh gosh, if I get sick or if something crazy happens in my family and I, and I have to go deal with that, that I will not be able. Continue delivering the services and continue having the passion for doing this.

Cuz it is a, it’s a physical job, it’s an emotional job. You’ve gotta have a lot of emotional sort of room, I think for clients that are going through things. Not because you are there to be their therapist, but it, it can be sort of, sort of heavy sometimes. Right? And, and so, so I so Charlotte, just an answer to your question a hundred percent.

I have had that experience, not just in the beginning, but even just over the years. 

 It is normal as an entrepreneur to have those ups and downs, and I think often we probably are those people who we kind of are the go-to for the people in our families. And so I’m not sure if you’re alluding to something specific like personal in your world, but all I can say is yes, yes and yes.

 I have had to let myself at times it’s like sometimes we, we have to do the bare minimum to survive. And then other times we have a lot more energy and a lot more ambition and motivation to give to projects.

And, but we don’t sustain that all the time. I don’t think anybody does. Especially when you have like a, a life outside of work and. , what do you think, Melissa? No, I totally agree, and I also, I really believe 

[00:13:43] Melissa Klug: I think the most important thing though is giving yourself the permission to say it’s okay. 

[00:13:48] Jen Kilbourne: Yeah. 

[00:13:49] Melissa Klug: Not be okay sometimes.

Mm-hmm. , like, it’s okay to say I am mentally exhausted. I cannot imagine going to a client, so I maybe need to just say, is it possible to reschedule for whatever reason. Mm-hmm. , giving yourself that permission. I think is really important. 

[00:14:07] Jen Kilbourne: Oh, yeah. And, and I mean, and especially if it’s something that is like , if a normal job, if a normal job would give you leave in order to go deal with this thing, like you should not feel like you, you know, it, it’s go to your client and organize their craft room or bust.

I mean, sometimes you have to say, I’m self-employed. I am having a family emergency, and I, you know, free of charge. I wanna make this up to, you wanna make your session up to you at my next available time. I mean, if that’s something that has to happen. So when you say step away from your business for a week or two, I mean, I’m assuming, you know, it’s not just about stepping away from marketing and stepping away from social media content because of course, like you can put a pause on that any time.

Right. But, but if you actually have to reschedule session. That you have, that you have, you know, planned out. I mean, I think most clients are really understanding. It’s like organizing is usually not an emergency. . 

[00:15:02] Melissa Klug: Yeah. I love that phrase, like organizing is, is never an emergency. U usually 

[00:15:07] Jen Kilbourne: not.

I mean, I don’t 

[00:15:09] Melissa Klug: Okay. 

[00:15:09] Jen Kilbourne: Alright. I’m, I’m glad you asked that because I think it’s important to say that. All right. Going back to Kenzie, she said after the meeting with her accountability partners this week, she felt, she said she felt better. Just expressing it. It’s easy to internalize, but definitely better to talk about it with people.

I plus one for that suggestion because I have to talk things out all the time. Yeah. Okay. 

Jess said, could you share some language to keep your client motivated during the decluttering process? I have a postpartum client who shuts down often. 

So Jess, I’m so glad that you asked this question because Melissa is not only personally an expert in this, but she loves helping. Teach other people how to do this. So Melissa, thank you again for just for being that person 

So with that being said, Melissa, Language to keep people motivated. , 

[00:15:56] Melissa Klug: okay, so Jess so I asked Jess how much pop [00:16:00] postpartum and she said four years. So that’s actually, we’re they’re, they’re a kid. So I was, I was looking for, I thought you were gonna say like two weeks and I was gonna be like, maybe not ti be a good time to organize, but so I think that what you could be dealing with I think it’s the same as keeping any client motivated.

So if what you’re asking is, if, if you mentioned the postpartum thing because she is having some issues with depression or motherhood has been very challenging for her. I always just go back to. Listening and your client just maybe needs you to be a listening ear versus a like, Sally, come get it done.

Kind of person. , there, there are ways that you can come into a client’s home and be like, okay, we’re gonna like get, do all the things today. And then there are some clients that they maybe don’t have anyone to listen to them talk about how they’re feeling. And this client may be one of those people.

Now, if it’s legitimately a motivation problem, then what I always do with clients is make sure that we have a conversation about what is your end goal? Why did you call me? Why did you want me to come organized with you? You must have needed me for some reason. And tell me about that vision for your end point of your playroom, your closet, your whatever room you’re doing with this client.

And sometimes giving them that remembrance of why they’re doing the organizing. Is enough to make them go, yeah, I need to get my energy and my motivation up to go get this done. But if your client is struggling with, you know, like I said, depression or if she’s got a four-year-old at home she may not have any energy to do the organizing, so it might be a situation too where you say to her, how can I make this easier for you?

 Maybe you could find some ways that you could, I always call it fairy god mothering, where you like sort things for her or you try to do as much of the work as possible. Let her come in, make the decisions, and then you say, go sit on the couch and watch Paw Patrol. I, I’ll get the rest of this. So hopefully that helps a little bit.

And Jess, if it doesn’t, you can throw us a couple more messages and clarify cuz mm-hmm. . I love that motivating a client thing. 

[00:18:15] Jen Kilbourne: Yeah. One thing I learned, and this is take it or leave it y’all. I think organizers, I, I mean we are such a, it is a combination. I’ve said this for a long time.

It’s like a combination of being like a personal trainer and a therapist and like an interior designer, but then also a life coach in a way. And now I went through a business coaching certification a couple years ago and interestingly, side note , I didn’t know this till after I signed up for the program.

They were like, well, business coaching is really life coaching. After like the first couple of sessions, as you find out, it’s not really about their job or their business or their career, it’s kind of about them as a person. I was like, oh yeah. And one of the things that got revisited a lot is that there is.

like if you visualize point A is the time that they hire you and point B, or maybe we’ll say point Z is the end result that they want. You think, okay, they hired me, they paid their money, they’re motivated, they’re ready to go. There is still a period of ambiguity for them at the beginning, like until they have seen some of their like not just the results that you’re providing for them, but building some trust in themselves to follow through.

 Until they have some of those early wins, there is still kind of a ambiguity that you have to continue selling them on the project or working on in. In this case, what I learned was, you know, the business coaching engagement Is that even after you sell them, you gotta keep selling them because until they are internally motivated, they’re kind of relying on the money and the appointments and the calls to get them to keep showing up, and Jess, I don’t know how long you’ve been working with this client, cuz you might say, Hey, I’ve been working with her for a year and we’re still [00:20:00] not at that point, but at the beginning it’s a little bit of still reminding them, just like Melissa said, reminding them of their goal, keeping them excited about not, not not point Z, but point D, E, and F.

Like, Hey, it’s gonna be so great just getting this first area done. Like getting some of that space back, getting some of your energy back. Like we were saying, getting rid of some of those things that are no longer. a match. And so the takeaway from this is not that you have to be annoyingly chipper like a cheerleader, but just checking in with them about how they’re feeling and making sure that we’re going at the pace that they want to.

And then again, remembering that the motivation is not something that you ultimately can, or you can’t be responsible for, but you can be the one who keeps showing up and reminding them, this is what you told me was gonna be life changing about this for you, and I really want to help you make those changes.

And I, and so again, that just goes back to what Melissa was saying about listening and compassion. and that sometimes that that’s what somebody really needs. Yes, they want help to clean out the closet, but what they really need is somebody to just literally stand there with them and be there with them because they are so overwhelmed they can’t do it.

And especially with little kids. 

[00:21:06] Melissa Klug: I mean, so, and I don’t wanna extrapolate the, like, I, I’m, I’m about to make up a lot of things that’s going, that are going on with this client that maybe none of them are, but . But I mean, for all you know she does not have a supportive partner at home and she’s, she feels alone with a four year old and she feels totally overwhelmed by the stuff.

And she is tired because the four year old is home with her all the time. I, I don’t know, but it really could just be like, it has nothing. I always say it’s not the stuff, it’s the stuff under the stuff and it’s the stuff under that stuff. Like it’s never about the toys that are overflowing in the toy.


[00:21:43] Jen Kilbourne: something else Jess just said. She’s forever grateful for both of us. Aw, that’s so nice. And that just made me cry. Also, Heidi just said, Jen, I appreciate the content you keep offering. Enjoying the podcast and that also just made me cry. Aw.

And I’m only 10 years postpartum, so I mean, I don’t know. I’m . I’m 

[00:21:59] Melissa Klug: 16. I don’t wanna brag, but I still cry a lot. . Yeah, me too. 

[00:22:04] Jen Kilbourne: Oh gosh. I know y’all that don’t have kids. You’re like, why do moms always act like this? Well, we really are just this crazy, like all the time. I don’t know. Well, Jess, we, we see you. I mean, we don’t know your client, but we see you and we know that.

I was going back earlier. I said this is an emotional job, like you holding that space for somebody else and letting it be okay. Like, I mean, that’s, you need support in that. Like, that’s why we. That’s why we made this group, but that’s why we, you know, wanna keep having this conversation where it’s like, you gotta take care of you because if you’re not taking care of you, you’re definitely not gonna be able to help take care of them.

So that’s why this is all, this is all very important conversation. 

Can I ask you a question? Me? 

[00:22:45] Melissa Klug: Yes. So, obviously we, like, we started a, a couple of new courses, but obviously you started inspired organizer, kind of before courses were 

[00:22:53] Jen Kilbourne: even 

[00:22:53] Melissa Klug: cool. Do you have, do , do you were an early adapter. You were a trailblazer.

, you have any thoughts for people who are considering doing an online organizing course or like, I started an online organizing course and I love it, but if people are still thinking about like, oh, it’s probably past that time that that is needed, do you have any thoughts for people 

[00:23:12] Jen Kilbourne: about courses?

Yes, I do. Ooh, this is such a big question. I’m so glad you asked my opinion on this. Like yeah, I, we know, I, I , I was, I was doing this before. It was cool. There were still organizing courses even before I started this one.

There were organizing business classes before this one. And so you don’t have to be the very first person or the only person who did something for it to be good. And you don’t have to, I mean, making just a very general statement for people who might feel that some certain market is saturated. My suggestion is, is look at what people are doing that is working and do your own spin on it.

You don’t, you don’t need to reinvent the wheel because on the one hand that shows, hey, there’s a market for it. And by that I mean when you know that it’s working because [00:24:00] you know somebody who’s taken their class or you can see that they have a huge following on their social media and they have a big Facebook group of their paid students or whatever.

 Organizing is a topic that’s never gonna go away. Mm-hmm. ever, ever. Now, if you feel very called about creating a course, it’s likely because of a few things. Like one, you either want something that is less intensive with hands-on, or you’re moving into a different phase of your business. And, and I totally get that.

Obviously, what I would suggest is to be very specific about the type of person that you are helping in this class. Because if you come along and you have an organizing course, that’s for anybody and everybody, and you’re gonna do the whole house in 10 weeks, that, that very general type of course, like.

That’s been done a lot. And not that you can’t be the person who comes along and like hits it outta the park and everybody wants to take yours. And also realize too, that when it comes to competition about certain things, ask yourself this. When you’ve been in your client’s houses, do they only have one organizing book?

No. They have a thousand . They hoard all of them. 

[00:25:11] Melissa Klug: They have every organizing book that has ever been 

[00:25:13] Jen Kilbourne: written don’t stress about. Like, oh, well they’ve already taken an organizing class and they’re never gonna take mine. Sometimes people like one, they like different approaches. They like different people.

They will revisit certain types of content at certain times in their life. So it’s not like it’s a competition and everybody who wants to take an organizing class will only take one. I bet you they’ll take seven because I don’t know, I don’t take organizing courses, but I’ve taken courses about all kinds of other business things and they have definitely at times overlapped, if not taught essentially the same thing, but in a different.

way. So, so that’s my very general advice. Like, I mean, the way you phrased it was at this point in the game that, that courses are more popular. The other thing I’ll tell you is that most people that you hear saying that they’re going to create an online course are never gonna do it. Right? And they will never market it.

And even if they do create the course, they’ll never do the things that they have to do to market it, which is literally 90% of that battle. So I would not get overwhelmed by the amount of people, like say you’re in accountability group, and everybody’s like, oh, that’s on my goal list. And you’re thinking, oh no.

Well, if my other nine friends are doing it, then maybe I shouldn’t. Well, maybe you should. I mean, maybe you’d be the one who actually does it. But if you’re really honing in on what your like magic sauce is, like your secret sauce.

And that is part science and part art, figuring out what that is. . I feel like I’m really good at helping people figure that out. And that is not something that I push a lot, but if you wanna do a private coaching session with me and not talk about it with everybody in the group, because you don’t want everybody to know what your idea is.

That’s what I’m here for, . You can just email us if you wanna talk about that. I mean that, and that’s just, you know, that’s just me throwing that out there just because I love helping people figure out like, is this idea really, really in alignment with you, first of all? And second of all, how would you position it and market it?

Because like we can agree that having the accountability and the structure of a program that somebody has paid for is gonna be better than nothing. And it’s less expensive than hiring an organizer to come in person. So it’s a different kind of client than your person who’s going to just say, Nope, I just need somebody come do it with me.

Come do it for me. But so it’s, it is a whole different type of client, but it’s still somebody who is willing to pay for the structure and the accountability and like the sequencing of, don’t get overwhelmed. Start here. Here’s your homework. So if you like to be the person who. creates milestones and assigns that and then helps give them feedback and gives them a place to sort of check in.

You could be great. I mean, you could be great at it. 

[00:27:41] Melissa Klug: With mine too, I’ve had a couple people who’ve done the online course and then they end up booking actual in-person time.

So it can also be an entry ticket for them to, to get to know you a little bit. So, that’s true. It, not in all cases, but in, in some cases. 

[00:27:59] Jen Kilbourne: So That’s [00:28:00] amazing. 

Okay. Amy said I think I’m still having a major disconnect with what and who my customer is other than a busy mom slash high end. When I’ve researched this, I found a strategy where it asks you to find a specific, find specific information about the one person as far as their job, marital status, family size, books they like to read, hobbies, interest, and what they look like.

There was a strategy to search other organizers and see what their audience is and what their audience is responding to. How do you go about this?

Do you wanna respond to that? Sure I can, I need a second to process, but Yeah. Yeah, no problem. Okay, 

[00:28:30] Melissa Klug: so I I love that you’re thinking about this, Amy, because it is important to think about who that person is. What I would tell you is you also don’t have to totally overthink who that person is. So what I would like you to do is sit down and say okay, if I could just conjure up my ideal house that I would go into, what does that look like?

And you could start to say I think I wanna work with. moms, I, I think I wanna work with moms of elementary school-aged children. And then you can say, if you wanna go to this length, I actually know someone in my networking world who she has named her ideal client. Like she knows everything about her.

Her name is Linda . Linda is 45 years old and she knows Linda’s dress size, what shoes Linda wears. This woman’s a stylist. So, you can go to that level if you want to, but you can also just say I think that I’m really drawn to working with moms of elementary school kids. And the key about deciding who that is, then that becomes who you speak to.

in your materials. So whether it’s your website, your social media you put yourself in front of those people. So for instance, you might wanna start speaking at mobs groups, moms of preschoolers. You might wanna find Facebook moms groups to connect with those people. So you start to say, this is probably my ideal person, but you don’t have to necessarily feel all of that pressure to make it down to like, well, she only reads romance novels and she only wears Rothi shoes.

Like, don’t feel that pressure to go to that level. 

[00:30:02] Jen Kilbourne: I, I agree with that. Something I teach in the modules about market research, which is in module two. Is your level of detail that you can really get down to, really depends on how big of an area that you live in, in the first place. Right?

Like one, like in my lesson, what I show is that, you know, I live in a very medium sized city. It is not. A metro, major metro area. And so just for me, having an idea of who my favorite client ever was that I worked with, right, is good enough. And just generally thinking about her in the way that I kind of edited and updated my website and who, like, how I, how I talked to new people.

Because it’s kind of like, okay, if it wasn’t somebody that I wanted to duplicate and get more of, then why would I be even thinking about them in my marketing? Does that make sense? And so, if you live in like a huge city, you can get down to like, okay, here, here’s what kind of company they work in, what they’re doing every day, what kind of dog they have and right, anywhere.


[00:31:00] Melissa Klug: you’re into that, you can go to that level of detail, , 

[00:31:03] Jen Kilbourne: but. But, but I don’t think that like having a general idea is good enough. I mean, I think because then it opens you to, okay, it’s this person, but it could be a range of different projects. It could be a range of different scenarios or the, or another way to niche down is not to have it be like that customer avatar.

And a lot of, a lot of marketing teaches this is to have your know, your customer have their name. And a lot of people do that. But another thing it could be like is, no, I am a closet specialist. I don’t care who the person is, what kind of house they live in, what their budget is. I am there for closets because I know this stuff like the back of my hand.

So like, that could be another way of going about it, where it, it’s not about a type of person, it’s about you. You are the best and the fastest. And the only choice if somebody wants a closet. Yeah, so maybe that resonates a little bit more than like trying to figure out the exact person. Or if you like working with moms, because you don’t mind trying to figure out the chaos of school and playrooms and kids stuff and helping [00:32:00] kids like have places for things.

 Maybe really your focus is more on playrooms and paper drop family centers, you know, what am I trying to say? Family com family command centers and having kind of designated places for everything so that kids can, you know, become more self-sufficient now. So that doesn’t necessarily say anything about who the parents are, it’s just as long as it’s important to them, this is what the outcome is that you can help them get.

So maybe just, just sleep on it, you know, and maybe your person, maybe your person will come to you more organically once you have a couple of clients and have tried some different things. You’re like, oh, thought it was one thing, but really this is what I enjoy more now that I’m hands on with it.

Yeah, that makes sense. Amy said she had a follow up about that actually. She said she’s not a mom, and so a lot of the groups want you to be a mom to join.

So, yeah, I get it. You gotta kind of come in like a roundabout way, like of, , meeting those moms and developing your reputation and then, you know, really going on the, the referrals. That’s a good networking piece of like, you find a, you find a couple 

[00:33:04] Melissa Klug: moms in your community, Amy, that you can help and maybe you help them as a, you know, to get some referrals 

[00:33:11] Jen Kilbourne: and you can get them to talk about you in this space.

Absolutely. Without.

Yeah, say, say like, you know, if they’re like, thank you so much, I don’t know what we do without, you say like, the best thing that you can do to thank me is to share this. Like maybe you’re in a Facebook group locally with all these moms. They’re like, oh, I totally am. 

[00:33:28] Melissa Klug: Because if you’re in that group, you can’t sell yourself but someone else can sell you.

And so like I got sold on a physician mom’s Facebook group, which Ps get on a physician, like somehow find someone in a physician mom’s Facebook group to, to talk about how great you are. But getting someone else to talk about you in those Facebook groups is a hundred times more valuable than you getting in the group 

[00:33:50] Jen Kilbourne: yourself.

That is true. Cuz people trust their friends recommendations. 

[00:33:53] Melissa Klug: They do. And they’re not gonna let you talk about yourself in those groups anyway. Like, you’re not gonna be allowed to sell yourself anyway. Or you might get 

[00:34:00] Jen Kilbourne: kicked out. Really good one. Okay. Tell us about Kat’s question. Hi Kat. 

[00:34:05] Melissa Klug: Kat says this, I love this. How do you get it all done? What does your support system look like? What do you farm out in order to be the most productive you and look like Superwoman, who’s getting it all done with two hearts? 

[00:34:19] Jen Kilbourne: She, she was sending that to you? Not to me. . 

[00:34:21] Melissa Klug: No, she wasn’t sending it to me.

There’s no way she was sending it to me. . 

[00:34:26] Jen Kilbourne: So, Thanks. So Kat I don’t, I don’t get it all done. And I I’m not even mad at you for asking that question because I like, I like I was saying earlier I have, I have periods of time where I am very motivated and very productive, and then other periods of time that I’m like, I am not really functioning that well and I need someone to take care of me.

I mean, I, that’s such a big question. 

She, Kat said she was talking to both of us. Oh, , . So Melissa, I would love for you to answer this from an organizing business perspective, and then I can kind of come back to like, you know, life in general.


[00:35:07] Melissa Klug: Yeah. So I think on the support side, I, and I say this a lot, but I always make sure that I have entrepreneur buddies available to talk to because when you realize that you are not alone and you are not alone, and being totally overwhelmed and having a day where you can’t get everything done.

I think the, the key that I always try to come back to is what. Helping me move the ball forward. And that is, you know, am I doing all the things I need to be doing for my organizing clients and for inspired organizer students? And what am I doing to make sure that I have the most important things handled, not necessarily the urgent things.

So it’s super easy to get bogged down and email all of that kind of stuff. Now all that being said, I do try to have some systems in place, and I have recently and I [00:36:00] know Jen has gotten some support people too. So I, I have cried uncle a little bit and asked for some help and sometimes. things just fall by the wayside. And you say, I’m really sorry. Like sometimes it’s just an apology of, yeah, I didn’t get it done and I promise you I’ll get it done tomorrow. And sometimes it’s saying no and saying no is very hard.

I do not enjoy saying no, but sometimes I have to say, I’m sorry, I’m not going to be able to come to your house for three weeks because they don’t need to know this. But I have tons of pro organizer stuff to work on. Or you know, it may be a pro organizer student that I say, I’m sorry I can’t talk to you until tomorrow because I have an organizing client.

So sometimes just that piece because again, I wanna make sure I’m the best me showing up to those people. So that’s my very short. I’ll also say I just have a really weird, I don’t mind working really, really late at night or really early in the morning. So sometimes I just knock stuff out when it’s really quiet.

[00:37:00] Jen Kilbourne: Melissa, you did tell me once that. , it was easier for you to keep up that pace because you were used to a corporate job that expected you at all hours of the day. Yes, and I will say I was not brought up in that background. And so , so I do think that you have a certain stamina for the long hours and all of the emails and administrative stuff that, you know, a lot of people who, you know, are new to managing all of that for themselves in a business or whatever.

 It doesn’t come second nature and you really, it’s, it’s hard to get in and out of that head space a lot. All right, Kat, I’m gonna give you a little bit more answer as much as I can and then , then let Melissa keep talking about some other things. But Kat, I I will say something, I mean,

It. . I don’t have a balance. Like, I don’t think I’ve always had, well, I definitely have not always had a balance with, you know, I, I mean, and I think too at like my stage of life, having young kids in the house and them growing and they don’t need me less, they kind of need me more.

 There have certainly been a lot of times that me being an entrepreneur has taken a toll because it required a certain. , you know, initial burst of energy and then the long-term hours and long late night hours and all hours of the day cuz you’re on social media no matter where you go.

 That I wouldn’t, I would say is not, has not really been sustainable in the long term.

 So for me, when you’re talking about deciding what to outsource, I mean I, you, I mean, I think, you know, I’ve always had team members of various Roles and responsibilities that I am very happy to outsource and to share responsibility with so that it doesn’t just, you know, psychologically and emotionally all weigh on me to literally be available at all times.

I mean, that’s not, that’s not sustainable for anybody, even when you do launch a business and it is just you wearing all those hats at the beginning. 

 And you don’t have to apologize for needing help.

Just because we’re organized people does not mean that we are supposed to, like, like you said, literally wear all the hats, never run out of energy, always show up on time, always have some meal cooked. Like Uhuh, no, I’ve been cooking frozen microwave meals. Other things do get sacrificed and you really have to be okay with that.

And not, like, worry that my kids are gonna like , they’re not gonna suffer. They’re gonna be just fine. Cuz I’m, I’m, I’m doing a good job with them. But am I Supermom? No, no. Nobody 

[00:39:19] Melissa Klug: is, by the way. 

[00:39:21] Jen Kilbourne: Yeah. So that’s my, that’s my, I don’t know, that’s my 2 cents. I’m single-handedly, 

[00:39:26] Melissa Klug: Keeping DoorDash in business, by the way.

Like me, by myself, . So, 

[00:39:30] Jen Kilbourne: oh, same here. Okay. 

Awesome. Well, I love too, like, 

[00:39:35] Melissa Klug: Okay, this is, first of all, Miriam says someone needs to put out a course on how to say no . 

[00:39:40] Jen Kilbourne: So, oh okay. 

[00:39:41] Melissa Klug: But I love this.

Charlotte says I’m learning that no is a, a sentence, so I love that. Like no was a period after. It is a complete sentence. And I am the classic example of like, well, no, but let me explain to you why, because I blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. No, you can just say, I’m sorry, that doesn’t work for me. Or you can just say, No.[00:40:00] 

 And Heidi says, I’m not that . What gives me the courage to say no is that knowing I’m saying no to someone or something else. So I, I think what she’s trying to say is like, I’m actually saying yes to something else because I’m saying no. And that’s important too. That is 

[00:40:16] Jen Kilbourne: so true. That is so true.

[00:40:18] Melissa Klug: So I do have something though that I think is important is sometimes I think the reason we feel this way, like there, because there are. 62,000 things to do. It’s not just about family stuff, but like just in your business, like, oh my gosh, I gotta do social media, I gotta do a website, I gotta do blah, blah, blah.

I gotta do a net, I gotta network, I gotta blah. So give yourself the permission to say, you know what? I cannot do all of those things today. So if I’m having one of those overwhelmed days, guess what? Social media maybe goes by the wayside and do not feel the comparisonitis of, well, if I don’t post something on social media today, I am going to lose all my followers and I’m never gonna have a client again.

Or if I don’t do this thing like that, catastrophic thinking of, well, if I don’t do something, then something bad’s gonna happen. No, actually one of the best things you can do for yourself maybe is step back and say, I need to think about how I could get a better process for this. Or I need to think, I need to take three hours outta my day-to-day to figure out how to fix this moving forward.

So I’m less overwhelmed by it, and it’s sometimes just stepping back a little bit is what helps too. I love that. 

Well, I hope you guys enjoyed that little taste of what it is like inside our inspired organizer group. I hope that, I hope that you guys were able to get some gems from that conversation between Jen and myself. I love talking to Jen. I could listen to her all day long, so I hope that you guys enjoyed that, and I would love to see you on our free workshop.

Once again, it’s Would absolutely love to see you there, and I hope that you have a spectacular week. Talk to you soon, organizers.

Thank you so much for listening into the pro organizer studio podcast. If you’d like to get our roadmap for success as a pro organizer, head straight to

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Photos of jen by ANGELA ZION