Taking Chances, Pro Organizing Business Passion, and "I need to die on less hills!"
“We just have more information at this point in our business journey than we had five years ago.
Ryan and I were joking that, you know, we started this and just thought we were going to beautify spaces. We didn’t think like, we’re changing people’s lives with systems. We’re changing people’s lives with how they do things, and even how it boiled down to us.”
We are back with part two of my extensive conversation with Brandie and Ryan of Home+Sort and the How To: Summit are back with SO MUCH GOODNESS. We are chatting about so many things, including clients being liars (we'll explain!), being passionate about your business and what kinds of conversations that leads to--and so much more. I can't wait for you to hear all the great things we get into.
This interview originally aired as an episode of the Pro Organizer Studio Podcast. If you would like to listen, You can LISTEN HERE or find us on Apple, Spotify, or anywhere you love to listen to podcasts!
Brandie and Ryan of Home+Sort and the founders of the How To: Summit
Brandie: I don't know if this kind of stuff is possible, but do like a podcast at the summit or something like that.
Oh yeah. Oh we totally could. That would be so fun. That'd be really fun. So think, think about that 'cause that would be fun. Or you know, like interviewing a couple different people, over the lunch hour or, I don't know, something like that. Oh, that would be awesome. That would be fun.
Melissa Klug: Yeah, I, that's a great idea, Brandie.
Ryan: I love that idea. So cutting edge. I just feel like that's very like. Only murders in the building type stuff.
Brandie: Like I just thought about that, you know, with all these creative ideas, ideas I have all the time, which said no one ever, 'cause Ryan has all the creative ideas.
Melissa Klug: I was gonna say, which one of you has the creative…
Ryan: Apparently Brandie. It's Brandie. Like occasionally have one idea.
Brandie: that's not true. And Ryan says, because I have so few of them.
Melissa: Who's the older one?
Brandie: Me. But not by much.
Melissa: Are you the oldest of all three?
Brandie: No, I'm in the middle.
Brandie: And Ryan is the baby.
Ryan: I'm very much the baby.
Brandie: And we kind of work and function still like in sibling roles. Ryan says sometimes she's like, I don't even try to be in charge. 'cause if you're there it's never gonna happen. So she's like, it's not even…
Ryan: what would happen? Let me tell you. If I try to be in charge, Brandie would eventually relinquish control.
But there would be a fight in the it, like I'd have to fight for it. And Brandie would talk herself down and, you know, do all the positive things that would say, okay, somebody else can have a good idea.
Brandie: and that's not worth it to me. Yeah. She's better at it.
Ryan: Okay.
Melissa Klug: This is, this is a serious question though.
Like, this is actually for the podcast. How,
Brandie: oh, I forgot we're doing the podcast.
Melissa: Yeah, no, no, because I'm, I'm really interested in, like, I'm, I'm so interested in the sibling dynamic because I interviewed someone recently that she and her husband have a business together. And so I was talking to her about what that is like now they have to go home together at the end of the night.
Mm-hmm. What is your sibling like? Do you guys have fights when you're on jobs or do you just have like a.
Ryan: Oh yes. Oh yes. That's hilarious. Of course we do.
Brandie: You know, I think the difference in Ryan and I with working with your family is how you resolve the fights, not necessarily that you have them, because I think Ryan and I, in our, in our family dynamic, we have an older sister, Shannon, and she is four and a half years older than me, seven years older than Ryan.
And so even though Shannon and I, a lot of like our younger years, we kind of probably have more similar experiences than Ryan and I from high school on because we're only two and a half years apart. We shared friends. We both had like very similar hobbies. So we had a lot of things that were our shared experiences, probably more like our older years.
And so, we definitely fight or argue, but we also are like, we're sisters and we're best friends. And at the end of the day, there's nothing that we don't work out. There's nothing that we don't just realize our relationship trumps all of it. Now, the bottom line truth is we started this business and we're trying to build something and we both have to work. You know what I mean? Yeah. So it's like there, that is a very real dynamic, but we're never gonna get to a place where we're like, well, we chose the business over being sisters like that. Yeah. It's just not an option.
Ryan is really, really good at saying, sorry, I'm not good at saying as good at, sorry as she is. But I feel like I, in my own self-talk, am trying to try and address things a little bit differently because I can be really hardcore. And Ryan's way more flexible and easygoing about things. And I'm kind of like, no, there is one way to do it. If we don't do it that way, I will die.
Ryan: That goes back to that birth order of my whole life. I've been told, this is how it goes. This is what we do. So it's like, Hmm. All right.
Brandie: You know?
Melissa Klug: Well, I just think it's fascinating 'cause I don't know a lot of siblings that work together in this business. Yeah. I mean, I know I, I know a couple mothers and daughters, that type of thing.
Ryan: But yeah, I've never had a job for anyone other than my family. This is only my second job. My first job I worked for my parents. That's awesome. Yeah. So again, that baby kind of, you know, oh I, I've literally never had a job, so Yeah.
Melissa: Were your parents entrepreneurs?
Brandie: Our mom was.
Melissa Klug: Fascinating. I love this.
Brandie: Yeah. So, we both worked for our mom and so we already know what it's like to have a family working dynamic. And so when we started Home+Sort, I think because that was so normal to us. 'cause people say all the time, I could never work with my family. And our answer is, I could never work with someone who wasn't my family.
Yeah. Right. Because I'm like the enmeshment of our lives and the conversations we have to have, I feel like, would be uncomfortable with a friend. Okay. I feel like talking money with one of your best friends to me, that would, that I don't, I I couldn't figure that out.
Ryan: And there's just such a trust, I say all the time, 'cause I don't do any of our financial stuff, Brandie does. And I'm like, well if Brandie takes all the money and uses it, she probably needs it for something. It's like, that's really nice If she steals it, if she robs us blind, oh well you know that.
Melissa Klug: I just think, I think it's cool that you guys had, you had a role model and your mom, and then you know how to do all of these things. Like you had a little, you were born into it to some degree, but then you've been able to figure it out along the way. Yeah, I think it's awesome.
Ryan: Well, and our mom started her business when I was in high school, so, we watched it all but what I was gonna tell you earlier is what's funny is our team, especially when we were first starting out Brandi and I would bicker or argue or something. And our team, you know, at first they felt, you could tell they were a little like, what? I don't know what to do.
And now they just laugh at us. They're like, well, we've been a part of some doozies, and now it's just, but they say, the same thing, that it's amazing to watch us argue and then just. Move on.
Brandie: I mean, i, I think anyone that's passionate about what they do and, feels strongly about their ideas and convictions, there's gonna be some tension there.
Melissa Klug: Sure. Yeah. I used to have a sign that said, I'm not bossy, I just have better ideas. That sounds a little aggressive. It's, it's a little aggressive. Right. But, but I'm like, no, I'm just passionate about the things that I believe in. There are some things that I believe very strongly in and, and like, you're never gonna get me off of that.
Ryan: Yeah. Like believing that. Yeah. Brandie and I talk about it often that 'cause all of us in our family are a little bit this way. That we are the people that walk into a room and see what could be improved. And that's, it's not an arrogant thing. We don't go, oh, you know, it could be improved and I would've done it so much better. But just like, oh, if we tweak this a little bit, this would be next level.
Ryan: Or if we, you know, that, that kind of a thing.
Brandie: So well, and to be honest, we're hardest on ourselves. Sure. Yeah. We got to ourselves 50 million times before we would try and do it to anyone else, you know.
Yeah. And I think a big thing about being in a business relationship, is that, it's like I've realized areas. Where I fall short. And I know if I try and do some of these tweaks, it makes me a better business partner.
And so, you know, I am very that sign, I just have better ideas. I know sometimes, I also think I'm right most of the time. Yeah. And then Ryan and I'll have these discussions and she's trying to explain to me how I'm not Right. And still I'm like, Ryan, nope. It's still coming up that I'm right. I still feel that way.
Yeah. And I know it sounds dumb, but like even some of those things I, I like think through before a situation. Okay, I wanna give in this situation because I'm trying to find all the things that I feel really strongly about and find some things that I feel less strongly about so I can give that up.
If that makes any sense. Yeah, absolutely. It's like there, I try to do that more for Ryan. I don't know if she notices. I hope she does, but I really do, like in the last, that face says it all, couple months of my life, I'm like,
Ryan: I missed that somehow.
Brandie: No, I'm kidding. But you know, miss, if you're a strong personality, you kind of feel strongly about everything.
Yeah. That's probably a difficult relational dynamic for other people being in relationship with you. It's not a problem for me.
Ryan and Brandie with their new collaboration with Erin Condren, a Home+Sort planner!
Ryan: We say often to each other–I don't feel strongly or I do feel strongly about this. And that's kind of, Brandie was trying to change a way we do something in organizing and I was like, I feel very strongly about this.
But that's kind of our phrase of when some, when they say that we know, okay, we're, there's gonna be a compromise. 'cause that person feels strongly, so we're gonna let 'em have it.
Melissa Klug: Yeah. Do you feel strongly about specific organizing things or is it business things?
I have some organizing things that I'm like, I'll die on this hill. Yes. And then I have some things I'm like, eh, whatever.
Brandie: Okay. Yes. We have that
Ryan: about everything.
Brandie: Okay. Now, not, and that was my point, is I'm not, I, I'm a kind of person. I'm like, I will die on this hill today.
I'm gonna die on that hill. I'm gonna die on that one. You have a lot of hills you're dying on. I'm trying to die on less hills because I think it's hard to be in relationship with someone who will die on every hill. Right. And it goes back to the fact that I usually think my ideas are best and I usually think I'm right.
It's a problem. Okay. I'm working on it.
Ryan: You have good ideas. That's not on you.
Brandie: Well, and Ryan's really flexible, like 99.9% of the time, unless she feels really strongly about something. So I know there's certain things neither one of us care about, but then there's other things we were like, there's one way to do this and this is the way.
Ryan: about 95% of the time we align on what we really care about. Now I think the difference. Wow. We are really having a therapy session here. I like it.
Brandie: I’m into it.
Ryan: I think the difference is, is as an adult I have learned that it's okay to change your mind.
And I think when you're someone who's so principled like Brandie, it's really hard to, go, oh, I just changed my opinion on that.
Brandie: Yeah. So if I say something, I will die by my word. And Ryan's like, it's okay Brandie, to let it go. I'm like, I can't let it go. I said it, I said, I would do that. I will go within an inch of my life to do what I said I would do.
Yeah. She really will. I know I don't know why I am that way.
Melissa Klug: I just, do you find that more like be since I became an organizer, There are some things that I'm much more flexible about because I think you're working with real people, but do you have some things now that you're like, I actually believe this more strongly because I'm trying to help you live a better life.
Do you know what I mean? Like, I just think sometimes there are things that you're like, I'm passionate about this because I'm trying to help you. Yeah. And I want you to listen to me try to help you.
Ryan: Yeah. Yeah. What's interesting is because of our work, I see changes not only in Brandie and I, but things that we are now, you know, having our family adopt. For example, I just think as Americans, we have way too much stuff. I think we're so much stuff consumers,
I think it's, I think it's a problem. The constant Costcos going up and people, you know, two people shopping at Costco. I'm like, where, where's this even? It's not good.
There's so much expired and waste and, and it's not because I don't like to buy things, I really do, but I just don't like the clutter. Obviously I'm a professional organizer, but we have found that we just cherish memories over possession. So this year for Christmas, we're all going on a trip instead of opening presents 'cause we're, Brandie and I are tired of the stuff.
So much stuff and just dying just to buy. It's like, let's, you this is gonna be better for our families. We're gonna make memories, we're gonna get closer. All of these things. And so I think that, yes, if like I could help people see that and in a little way we are.
'Cause we're making our family see it. And everyone's so excited about this trip, and. Then we're not contributing to the clutter and the, just the needless buying for no reason.
Brandie: Yeah. Yeah. You know what's funny is I think that we just know, we just have more information at this point in our business journey than we had five years ago.
Ryan and I were joking that, you know, we started this and just thought we were gonna beautify spaces. We didn't think like we're changing people's lives with systems. We're changing people's lives with how they do things, and even how it boiled down to us and that same thing, it's like my kids, their closets are a little bit more minimalistic because I don't understand why someone needs 20 pairs of the same type of tennis shoe.
And we're in spaces where there is extreme opulence. Money is no issue. That's not everyone. But that is a large portion of our clients and. Even then sometimes I think I've actually probably gone the opposite way. It's like I loved all that at first 'cause it was so fun.
And I love beautiful clothes, I love designer things. I love all the good shoes and all that. But it's just so funny 'cause I think we live our lives, whether we're on the job or planning or just supporting our team where people are constantly trying to manage stuff and make a solution for stuff, when probably the easiest solution is to ditch half of the stuff.
But absolutely. And so, yeah, my kids are that way too, as I feel like it's like minimalist is a really great way to live until all of a sudden it's like the night before at midnight and you realize your kids don't have something because you live pared down life. You're like, well, crap. What's open?
Yeah, that's true. But I just think we didn't know that stuff when we started. I didn't know how much stuff affected people's lives and how it affected their mental health and their, just all of it, you know? I was definitely unprepared for the amount of mental health stuff that we deal with.
Melissa Klug: Yeah. And just even no matter what house you're in, even if you're in a house where all they wanna do is just, they want you to make it beautiful, there's always something going on. Yeah. Right. I say it's 90% therapy and 10% putting things in bags.
Like, it's totally, it really is just a lot of, talking about consumption and my mom never let me buy things, so now I buy too many things or it's just all of that stuff. It's a lot.
Brandie: And we did not see that coming. Because we found ourselves in some situations where that was happening and I was like, wait, why is this person digging through the garbage?
We just had no idea. I was like, oh, I didn't realize there was. Inner workings attached to this stuff. Yeah. And not everybody's that way, but we, not everybody that thinks we joke all the time that everybody is a liar. 'cause they're like, do what you want. We don't care.
Ryan: We don't, we don't, I don't have a lot of stuff. I think it'll take you like two hours. That's my favorite.
Melissa Klug: Yeah. I always, so I train organizers, like I teach them how to organize now. And one of the things that I tell them is you can't believe anyone. And it's, I mean that the nicest way, like if someone comes to you and says, I don't have very much stuff, it won't take very long.
They might be on the hoarding spectrum. And if someone comes to you and says, I think I might be a hoarder, they're actually probably a minimalist, like a hundred percent
Ryan: Hundred percent opposite. Yeah, you are true.
Melissa Klug: One of the things that I talk to organizers a lot about is I want you to dream big. And it doesn't have to be huge, right? Dreaming big for you. Could be, I want to have a team of two people, or it could be, I wanna start this business as a side hustle. You guys have created some amazing things and you have such a successful business.
When you started out, did you have these dreams or did it just kind of evolve?
Ryan: I, we didn't set out with like, this is our first year goal. This is our second, you know, this is how we're gonna scale.
Brandie: No, we did not. Yeah. We were very much just, we're like, okay, I don't know. Let's throw this at the wall and see if it sticks kind of a thing.
Ryan: Yeah. Like, let's see if this. We can do something with this. So, no, I would love to tell you, we had a solid plan. We didn't.
Melissa Klug: I actually like it better that you didn't have a plan. I legit, like, I like the idea of you just saw what happened and it just started growing.
I think that's awesome. I just didn't know if you guys said we wanna organize houses, but we also want to do all these other things.
Ryan: No, no, no. And we've changed, year two or year three, we did business coaching and we're like, Nope, we, that is not what we wanna do. I think that's a really special person like you that can do that and really walk people through. I did not like that personally. Not that I love the people, but kind of, anyways, that didn't work. So we've changed. It's like we've tried this, we've tried that.
Brandie: You know, a nice thing about your business getting older is you really can go okay, we know what we're really good at now, and we have a laser focus on these things.
Brandie: These are our biggest money makers. We're gonna focus on that. We are very strategic, like we have another partnership thing coming out that we'll announce at the summit.
Ryan: And so we do some very strategic things, but I feel there was like two years in there. We're just throwing, we're doing everything to try and figure out what's additional sources of revenue and what, are we really passionate about and what do people want to hear about?
And so, we stopped all of that and have really focused on organizing in a couple brand partnerships.
Brandie: I think too, probably one of our greatest things about us, which out of balance can probably become a not great thing about us, is like what Ryan said, we're just willing to throw things at the wall.
It's like, yeah, let's try this and see if we like it and see if it works. We don't always have a ton of strategy behind that, which sometimes we're like, maybe we should actually give some of these things more thought before we do them. But Ryan is a genuine, true creative and so I think new ideas and things like that are fuel to her.
Mm-hmm. I'm far more logistical and so I think I could probably do the same thing until I die and that would work for me. The marriage of those two things together, definitely keeps it fresh and, and there's always something new happening. But yeah, I think when we first started, we knew we wanted to build the business. To be honest, we didn't even really know how. I genuinely, I think there's the type of personality that they just won't start anything till it's perfect. I would say we're the opposite. Like we get things dialed in, but then we just go for it and figure it out as we go along.
Yeah. Which we just learned a lot. Like had we waited for a perfect scenario, I don't know that there ever would've been one or w that we would've even had the knowledge to create one. We just didn't know what we were doing. But we said all the time, we can outwork anyone and we would probably far more have workaholic tendencies than, I don't know what the opposite of that is.
Whatever the opposite is. And so, I'm always impressed by people that have these great plans 'cause that's just not exactly how we work. And it would, would've probably saved us a bunch of time if we had a great, probably a lot of money, but yeah. It's interesting too 'cause I'm sure with coaching so many people or knowing so many people on the podcast, you realize certain organizers, they're like a real type A personality in the fact that they've got their plan, they've got their spreadsheet, they've got their Excel documents.
We have those elements to us. But to be honest, we are way more fly by the seat of your pants party. Let's jack this thing up and do something bigger than we are. And so I laugh because sometimes I feel like we fit in in this industry and then other ways I'm like, oh gosh, we're not like that at all.
Melissa Klug: So we're gonna be best friends. 'cause that's exactly how I am. I'm like, I will figure it out. And, I might make a five minute podcast episode that's just the last four minutes of what we've said because I do think it's really important.
I want everybody to really listen too, it's totally great and a lot of organizers love to have plans and we love to think about things. But you have got to, at some point let go of those plans and just say, What you said earlier, what is the worst that can happen? Yeah. We sometimes, there are so many people that tend to overthink everything and if you guys are listening to only just the tiniest little part of this, please listen to this.
Very, successful organizing business has very little actual planning that they do. They figure things out and they, and look what happens. And if you guys had waited, you know, it's that concept of opportunity cost. You guys might have waited four years and you never would've done it. Ever. Yeah.
Because you were trying to do so many spreadsheets and so many plans. Yeah. And I just, I think that's beautiful to let go of a little bit of that. And just see what happens
Brandie: And to just encourage someone really quickly, which is what I love about having a business partner, is that when you're down or when you think you've failed, you need someone.
You need, like your organizing bestie. Ryan and I have each other, we have other people in the industry that we're super close with that you're like, it's okay. Get back up and keep going. We've done a lot of things that have not panned out. Yeah.
Ryan: We've taken a lot of risks that have cost us. And guess what? You survive.
Brandie: Yeah. It's like we, we laugh. I mean, we may have a, a teary moment of, wow, that didn't turn out the way we wanted it to, but then you just keep going. You know what I mean? And so it's like I am. And I think when you have no community or you have no one in your corner, I actually know a lot of people in this industry just because of doing the summit and the people that we know and doing some coaching that actually have started businesses in the time that we've started.
They have started and stopped. Like they just aren't organizers anymore. Which, you know, everyone has their plethora of reasons, but I wonder how many of those people they didn't maybe have anyone pushing them to keep going or. Everyone ]says this, but it is true. You cannot judge someone just off of social media.
I know. It's like you're saying really nice things about us and I'm like, gosh, are we that successful? I don't feel that successful, but you know, but you get on there and you put your best foot forward and talk about all the big things. You're not like, well that client called and wanted a refund.
Yeah. Not that anyone actually ever has wanted a refund, but you know what I mean? There's
Ryan: A lot of stuff that goes into running a business that is, you know, tricky. And we don't put that on social media and I get it. I know why we don't, but you just can't judge someone off social media.
I remember when everybody in the organizing community was coming out with a book and I'm like, well, we're losers. 'cause we don't have a book. We don't have a book. Right. Clearly this, this is, this is what you have to do. You have to have a book. Brandi's like, no, we don't, that's not our thing.
We're doing other things. And so, all that to say like, really remind yourself, you just cannot compare social media. It is not an apples to apples kind of thing. There's someone that came to us to speak at the summit and they have this crazy business and they, their social media is not big at all.
Brandie: But they've got branches and franchises and they're occupying all these things. I'm like, good lord.
Melissa Klug: One of the most popular episodes we had of the podcast was one where I basically told people, you can just quit social media. Like you don't have to.
If you, if your goal is in home organizing and that's what you want, you do not have to do social media. And I'm so appreciative that you just said that because your social media is huge. And I think people probably look at that and go, oh, they have every single thing figured out.
Ryan: I want you to know, our social media hasn't grown in years.
Melissa Klug: Okay. Interesting.
Ryan: It actually decreased last month.
Brandie: No, it grows, but then we don't grow more than we lose. 'Cause we just lose. It's interesting. Oh, that's fascinating. Yeah. And that is almost every large organizer out there. Okay interesting. It's the same.
Melissa Klug: Yeah, because I think there are so many people that put so much pressure on themselves and they say, I have to do, you know, seven reels a day and I have to do all this. And it's like, no, you don't have to do all these things. And then also what I see a lot is exactly what you said, which is people compare themselves.
And I had an organizer the other day that said, well, there's an organizer in my city and she's doing so much stuff. And I'm like, how do you know that exactly? She's like, well, her social. Exactly. I'm like, that could be pictures of her own house. It could be pictures of a house she did three years ago and she's done one house.
I, you don't know what's actually going on.
Brandie: Yeah, all of our houses at the beginning were her own houses.
Ryan: Yeah, a hundred percent. People use someone's house for free. 'cause we needed content and there's no shame in that. I'm like, Hey, good for us. We did it. But, it's a marketing strategy. You're on here trying to get work.
Brandie: Take it for what it's, and one thing Ryan and I say all the time, and we never set out for it to be this way. We get a ton of work off of social media, and so we just don't have the luxury of throwing our phone in the ocean.
For sure. We get, and then, you know, once you, we've gotta deal with 'em. Design, we have something else coming out, well then they all care about your number. So it's, for us, sometimes I'm like, it's like this. It's a battle that you sometimes feel like you can't win. To be honest, for a long time we felt like we won it, but they change everything every five minutes.
Yes. And it's very hard unless you're a famous person.
Ryan: Oh, when the getting was good, it was great. We were growing a thousand plus a day. Yeah. That those were nice times and those times are gone.
Melissa Klug: Another thing that I just wanna remind everyone is you have a business model that includes not only in-home organizing, but you have a business model that transcends geography. So you need social media because your people are everywhere. But again, if you are just trying to grow an in-person local business, you do not have to devote your entire end.
There are so many more things you can be spending your time on.
Brandie: Totally. Just use it as your portfolio.
Ryan: That's what I say to people. Send, Hey, you wanna know what we do? Send a client there. And you can make it pretty, you can post the pictures, but you know, send it and have that be your portfolio. You don't need 10,000 followers to show someone you are good at what you do.
Brandie: Yeah, you absolutely do not.
Melissa Klug: Totally.
So did you see what I was talking about at the very beginning about how great some of the things they had to say were? I hope that it was helpful for you and that you had some takeaways. I definitely had some takeaways, and if nothing else, please, if you are hesitating on something in your business or if you're sitting around and you're trying to make it perfect.
Launch the thing, do the thing, send the thing out, whatever you're working on, make it happen. Put it out into the world. It does not have to be perfect. I know from them that sometimes it's okay to take a chance, and I have had that be true in my business, and it's something that I see when people are able to let go of some of those feelings, that they're able to be super, super successful.