186 | When it's time to quit a client (P2)
It's one of the hardest parts of professional organizing entrepreneurship--telling a client "sorry, I can't help." This is part 2 of my conversation with Melissa Gugni of her eponymous Bay Area organizing business.
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FULL TRANSCRIPT
Hey, Pro organizers. It's Melissa. And I'm back again with my friend, another Melissa. Melissa Gugni of Melissa Gugni Organizing in the San Francisco Bay area. If you listened to the first episode, we are talking about one of the hardest subjects in organizing it. When is a client not a good fit for you?
And how do you say, I don't think this is a good fit. It's hard, but we're walking you through a few situations that you might want to think about. And how you do it. If you haven't listened to the first part of our conversation, just go back one podcast. But once again, I'd like to say hi to my friend, Melissa. Have a great day, organizers.
Melissa Klug: Okay, so let's say. That you've got, whether it's a controlling client, whether it's just a client that you have the spidey sense about, it's just you've worked with them a long time.
You're not making any progress. There are a million ways you can get there, but let's get to the meat of it. Like you have someone where you have all of the signs that it's not quite right. Let's talk about how you make that decision. And then how do you implement that decision with that client?
Because that is something I think that's the hardest part for people is the actual. How do I do it? Yeah.
Melissa Gugni: I think the saying, if you don't know what to do, do nothing. That comes to mind. I think that's Buddhist or something. I don't know. Giving it some space. I know that the discomfort sometimes makes me want to, oh, this is just so painful.
And I just want to say, we're just done. Yeah. Sometimes that's the way to go, of course. And if it's, You're scheduling things quickly. You may need to, but in general, most things can benefit from having a little bit of time, giving your mind a break from it, going to the group, talking to people you trust, like letting the emotions out a little bit.
Yes. And then sitting with it and being like, what would it feel like to go back there? Maybe after a little bit of time, it becomes clearer. And I've certainly had that I've left jobs or a session where I'm like, Oh my God, that just about killed me. And then I, a week goes by and get ready for the next one.
Think I don't actually feel that way anymore.
Melissa Klug: Maybe that, or at least with me as I just go, Oh, I was hungry. I just needed a sandwich.
Melissa Gugni: Yes. I know, I know hormones sometimes play a big role in that too, or it's ah,right now I understand why I didn't have that day.
Melissa Klug: Yes. I know.
Melissa Gugni: Sometimes it's that, or sometimes like you're saying it's something that can be addressed.
I had a client once that I just kept leaving and I felt horrible and it was because it was so dusty. It was clean, but because there was so much open shelving and everything was open everything, it probably hadn't truly been cleaned in 20 years and it was killing me. So I said, Hey, I know you had mentioned you wanted to hire a deep cleaner.
I would appreciate it if you would do that before I come back. So there you go, and she did, and she was planning to do it. Sometimes it's just things like that. Now, other ways to deal with it, like I said, with the situation with the hoarder, I just had to do a clean break. I have also had it where I was all ready to end things.
It was just not progressing. They weren't really listening. It felt like they didn't really want me there. It was just it was a very I was a lot of mixed signals and that was one I was dreading going back and that was what the taught me like wow of all the places because they're pretty nice people like it's not like this is so bad but just had the sinking feeling like I'm just twiddling my thumbs and.
And I was all set to just say, I think we need to be done. Here's your money back for the new sessions. But then it occurred to me, it was like, how can we, how can I pose this that we're coming together to make this decision? Yeah. So I played around with an email and said, I, we did five or six sessions out of eight or something like that.
I know when you hired me, it felt like there was all this work, but I'm actually feeling that you're getting a lot of this work done on your own. Do you think there is much more that you want me to do? And what's so interesting is, once I had written that, it was like, I had freed myself. Because I thought, if they had come back and said, oh yeah, we sure do, we want you to do the garage next time.
Hey, that's actually solved the problem. Because I'm twiddling my thumbs, now I know, I'm gonna work in the garage. I can do that. Like I wouldn't dread that. And they came back and said, thank you so much. That was so amazing that you offered that. I know you don't, I don't offer refunds. But we are in a good position, so that would be fantastic if you wouldn't mind, and it was such a wonderful feeling to know they felt good about it.
I felt good about it. I gave the money back freely. I make a joke in my mind a few times come up. I like to think of the money as being an escrow where it's sure you count on the money and 99 percent of the time you should, however you take your money in, but maybe it wasn't really mine anyway.
It was just, I was holding it and now you can have it back. It's okay.
Melissa Klug: Yeah, I love that. And it frees you up. I always believe that it frees you up for different money from someone else that is more of a fit with you. I really do.
Melissa Gugni: Yep. And I'd love to share this too, because I have a mentor.
I'm so lucky. I occasionally work with an organizer who has been an organizer since the nineties. Oh gee. I know. I know. It's so cool. She does mostly big estates and works with banks. So it's a different style, but she had the first organizing reality show that was based in England. Like in 1999 or something.
That's amazing. Isn't that so cool? And she's such a cool person and talks about a wealth of information. And I had lunch with her in December and I was telling her kind of where I was going with all of this and. And what it was like to quit clients. She's like oh, I've quit so many clients over the years.
She said, the thing that she remembers is her dad always said, you can put down a nickel and pick up a dollar as long as you can get comfortable with your hand being empty in between. I love that. It chills even to say that. I'm such a visual person, but I can just see that and it's so true. Sometimes we're pointing so hard to things that aren't working.
There's more to come, but it's uncomfortable. And that's just the way it is. And no one likes that. It's not like I'm like, Oh, it feels good to be in this uncomfortable situation. It does not. But I have enough trust by doing this. Things are going to work out and speaking of that client that was the decision we made.
It's true. I don't like to do things just saying, oh, what about reviews? And what about that person is going to say nicer things to me than she just sent my money back and said, we're done. Yes. In this situation, it worked, even though in some situations you should just send the money back and say we're done.
Melissa Klug: Yeah. And this is all there is no black and white in any of the things that we are talking about today. It is all very gray, various shades of gray. And I think that you do know the people that you need to just. You know, and there was one situation that we will leave confidential, but that was in our group yesterday where everyone's response was refund and run some version of refund and run that is an okay response, right?
There are some situations where a refund and run is the right answer. There are some situations in which you avoid. So let's just say you really avoided that hard conversation and you didn't do it. And you just said, we're done here, refunded their money. You're exactly right. If that person might not have, they might have been left with a very bad taste in your mouth versus you still got what you wanted. You were very respectful and kind. It ended up being very mutual. Everybody's happy. They're happy. You're happy. Everybody's happy. Can't ask for more than that. Yeah. And you could have avoided the conversation or made it awkward and you didn't, you just put your big girl pants on, had the conversation, it ended up great.
And knowing the difference of what kind of conversation to have, I think that's the biggest thing is people feel like this is going to be some sort of contentious conversation as if you are. Actually getting fired and no, it doesn't have to be that way. There are a million ways to have that conversation where, you know, and it's all the jokes about making it, it's not you, it's me.
There are ways that you can do just like a breakup. It's not you, it's me. My schedule is this, or, I have had some changes in my life that are going to make scheduling this hard. You can make up a lot. You do not have to be brutally, ruthlessly honest with people unless that is something that is really important to you.
Melissa Gugni: You are correct. And that's, yeah, there's so much subtlety in that too. And I think that just brought up this thought that I've had in my mind plenty of times of I don't know how to help you, right? And back to the, I might just not be the right fit. And I'm okay with that because I'm a fit for lots and lots of people.
If sometimes I'm not, that's okay. I'm okay. I'm okay, person. I'm still good at what I do. We don't have to take that so to heart.
Melissa Klug: And it's very much okay to just say, there are a lot of different kinds of organizing, and I think my particular methods might not be the best fit for what you need. That is a great sentence that you can say of just, I'm not the right fit for you.
I have some thoughts about who might be a good fit for you. If they are a good candidate for a referral, like you were talking about earlier, not every client wants to, I always say don't give in to your burden. Actually, I don't say it. Marie Kondo says it. Don't get your burden. Do not make a problem.
Someone else's problem. But If you have someone that you go, they really might be a good fit. I've had several instances recently where I've had people come to me and I just said, you need a team. And I don't have a team, but my friend Missy does. And my friend Cory does. And here are there, depending on where you are in the twin cities, I'd love to send you their way.
Because I think that they're going to be better for you and really making it that whole, it's not you, it's me. Can actually end up helping them a lot in the end.
Melissa Gugni: Definitely. And clients are so grateful for that. Yes. Too. I love that. I had somebody come to me and basically they wanted Elfa.
They wanted the container store to design an Elfa closet in the closet. They thought it was a complicated closet. It was the most basic closet. I just said, I'd be happy to help you. And if you're overwhelmed and short on time, I can do it, but you'd be paying me to basically do the same thing. She was so grateful.
Yeah. And it's fine. I'm busy. Like I want you to have what you need. I feel a lot better just being a good resource in that situation.
Melissa Klug: You need a top track and four rails that go to the container store, they'll help you.
Melissa Gugni: I know. It's like in good conscience. I can't.
Melissa Klug: But that specific, I think that's where people get hung up is that actual conversation of the actual, Letting go process or telling someone.
Sorry, I can't come back. And by the way, I had this discussion two days ago with a very experienced organizer that I know who said, I have two clients right now that we just can't service. And she had. By the way, extremely valid reasons. I wish I could tell you guys a story because it is an eye popper.
But it's really bad. But she just, even though she is as experienced as she is, and she is a badass business woman, but she doesn't like having that conversation either. And so, just no. That, hey, you're not alone in not wanting to have the conversation, but it is a kindness to yourself and to them just to rip the band aid off and you can make it as simple as possible.
Doesn't have to be a dissertation. You don't have to give 212 reasons. You don't even have to give the actual reasons. You can do it and just say, thank you so much. Here's your money, or I'm sorry, I won't be able to schedule you. Or here are some other organizers. I think there are a million ways to do it.
Melissa Gugni: Yep, keeping it simple though. I know that's come up a lot in this past hour, but keep it simple. Don't need to feel like you have to say it all. And I'd also just like to add because I'm a wordy person on paper. I think I'm still like writing, yeah, I'm still writing my papers in college or something sometimes when I send an email, people don't want to hear, the full dissertation of why you have to leave and written very like in with big vocabulary words, just speak from the heart, keep it simple.
I think people respond better to that. And I think that I just say that because I think maybe that's a little bit of my own ego or I need to sound very smart in how I'm putting this understood, but keep it simple. Yeah.
Melissa Klug: And I will also say that there are some cases I can think of both in my own business or in other people's businesses where The other thing to be prepared for in a situation like this is you have a client that you have let go in the gentlest way, but they come back and it's, counterpoints or I'm begging you please, or, really asking you to reconsider your decision.
And what I would say about that is. Just make sure that you really have your convictions, right? If you're only really halfway about, this is not a client fit anymore. Don't have that conversation and then renege on it because it's hard to, it's hard to go back again. The conversation you say, I'm not coming back.
They beg you, you go okay. And then when you go, nope, I was right. The first time the second breakup. Is way worse. Just don't do that to yourself. Yeah.
Melissa Gugni: You had that happen?
Melissa Klug: I had, yeah, there's one. Yeah, there's one person in particular. I was very, I kept my boundaries really hard on this one. This was really, this was one that I should have seen, I should have said no originally.
I didn't. He was very aggressive about it. I don't understand why you won't continue to work with me. And this was a remote client, so it wasn't an in person thing, but he was just really assertive and aggressive about it. And then that made me more entrenched. I'm really serious.
Now you're being a bully. But I could easily see how someone could have said, okay, I'll change my mind. Because he was being so Aggressive about no. I want to continue to work with you. Yes, it just, I guess what I'm trying to say is make sure that you are prepared for. Oh but what if I did this?
What if I did this like a negotiation of why you might want to come back? Be ready for that with the sorry, I can't do that. Yeah,
Melissa Gugni: Hello, just to play the devil's advocate in your situation. That definitely makes sense. And for me, for instance, with that hoarding situation, I thought if I was to say what you'd need to clean this whole place out, but I don't think that was possible.
But what if it was a situation where. I feel like I'm being micromanaged and I need to have a little more freedom if they were like, fine, if you came back and worked the garage, we're going to give you space to do that. I think that I would be more open to be like maybe again, there's all kinds of different factors.
But yeah, that could be considered part of the boundary.
Melissa Klug: I’m not sure. I think that there I think that's the going back to. Using your gut, though, knowing that maybe you have this is not a client. I want to continue to work with them. They have promised to change XYZ behavior or they have something you feel like is going to be different.
You've got to give yourself the space then to go. But if it still isn't different, I need to know that I need to. I need to be prepared that this is something that is going to happen again. Yeah. Yes. But it's all hard. All of these things are hard. And I think we've told a lot of stories, but the biggest thing is when I think about when I first started my business.
When I was so naive and didn't know anything, I was like, I'm just going to make people's houses beautiful. And I did not know that there would be this level of everything we've talked about is almost like a flowchart of if this happens, then this, if this happens, then that, if this happens, then that.
There are so many parts of this business and there are never any very simple yes or no answers to any of this. But just. Reminding you that it is okay. And it is natural for you to say this client maybe isn't the right fit for me. Period.
Melissa Gugni: Yes, there is so much deep work going on that and things are also bound to trigger us to that, you either can deal with that or you can't, and that's okay.
And I'd say even organizing, there are types of organizing that have a lot fewer risks with all of this. Yes. I'd imagine doing vacation rentals. Probably. It's pretty straightforward. There's certain things. You can still have weird clients, but, or unusual things come up, but, it's, I think it's so fun.
I was planning to go to get a master's in psychology. I took every psychology class in the last 10 years thinking that's what I was going to do and then I realized I really didn't want to be a therapist. I love that I get to use so much of this. It's so personal, but organizing is what I really love to do.
I think it would be really boring doing model homes. I really love being personal, but people are really difficult. Dealing with people is difficult. It just is. Even the best people, right? Getting along is tough. It's part of life, but I think that's where the growth comes to.
Melissa Klug: Yeah. We must be the same person.
I was a psychology major. I was going to be a therapist and I did the same thing. I go, Oh no, that does not work for me. But I feel like I am. I am a therapist now. We all are. So yeah. That's another one though. Some people really I bet that there are some clients that I have that I'm like, I love this client, that there'd be other organizers that would be like, this is my worst nightmare.
Like I couldn't, I just, no thanks. So I love that stuff. I love getting into the psychology of it, but not everyone does and that's okay. Absolutely.
Melissa Gugni: We're all so different. I laugh that I am just neurotic and anxious women are like my jam.
Melissa Klug: I really love my really anxious clients.
Melissa Gugni: I can make them laugh.It's actually fun.
Melissa Klug: I think I told this story on the podcast, so I apologize for people who really pay attention. But I had a client, a potential client recently who was like really worked up wanting to make sure that I understood that she was anxious. And that she had a lot of anxiety and she's no, I really need you to understand that I need to know that you are okay.
Working with anxious people. And I'm like, girl, I have three of them that I live with in my home. And the dog is very anxious too, frankly. So yeah, I'm very comfortable with it. Also, most of my clients, also a lot of my friends, like we're good girls. Yep. I know.
Melissa Gugni: I know whether they know it or not, it seems to me.
Melissa Klug: Yeah. But I would also like to say that there are a lot of people that listen to this podcast who are experienced organizers. And then there are people who are just thinking about getting into organizing. And what I would like to say is we like to give a balanced view here, we want to give you a holistic look at the industry.
I assume that you are very similar to me. 98 percent of my client interactions and experiences are lovely. And I have never, ever had a job in all of my very many years of working where it is almost universally a pleasant experience. Every job is going to have its downsides, right? But this has way less downsides than any other job I've ever had.
So I don't want to scare people of Oh my gosh, every client you have, it's going to be.
Melissa Gugni: No definitely not. And that's where I think it's gotten so much easier as time's gone by when things aren't working. Because as I said, I love my job. I also don't take it personally if somebody is normally really great and friendly and they're being grumpy one day, cause they're dealing with their life.
Like it's fine. It's okay. I, again, I can take care of myself. Like I'm here to do my job and it's fine. It's, yeah it's very rare.
Melissa Klug: Yeah. I'm grumpy sometimes too, by the way. Me too. Sometimes I'm very cranky.
Melissa Gugni: I know, but when I'm working on a pantry, I'm just so happy. Like I think people are like I was in a bad mood and now I'm happy.
That's how it works.
Melissa Klug: There are a billion different kinds of organizing and you can do almost anything. But there was someone in one of our groups the other day that was like she's very much a side by side or like to work with a client. And someone was like, I think this is a case where you should really just work on your own.
And she's something I don't understand. Like, how do you do that? And I'm like, Oh my gosh. At the beginning, I thought the same thing. I wanted to work side by side with my clients. I like, and then I discovered the joy of not working with them. I just put my headphones in. Throw on an audio book, podcast, whatever I go.
It's glorious. I just do my thing. I make things look beautiful. I would like to give them a better house. It's fantastic. So give it a try. Oh my gosh.
Melissa Gugni: And you say that I had two things. Cause I think I read that thread a month or so ago. I got my first job where the client just wasn't there. Yeah. She had me come for sessions.
She was out of town, which was the best. I just had the code to get in the house. I went when I wanted to, I ended up going on a Sunday just because I had a car full of stuff. It turned out so beautiful. Yeah. There wasn't a ton of calling to be done. It's not a fit for everyone, but I'd only known people knew and then I mentioned that to another new client and he was like, so how much would that cost if you just came in and did the what did he, the extreme makeover version or whatever.
It was like. Maybe that's something I need to explore because I loved it and she was so happy on my website.
Melissa Klug: I call it fairy godmothering. Oh, nice. And that's how I phrase it to clients. As I say, I'll just do it for you. And I have a client that I have not physically seen her in person in months.
I just. Have the key, she, I have a key to her apartment that I'm able to get and I go in and the end. It's just, it's great. It's great for both of us.
Melissa Gugni: Yeah, it's just a different type. And I guess I, I maybe thought that too, that everything needs to be very customized to exactly what they wanted.
But as I mentioned, most of my clients do not want to work with me. In fact, that's a condition of hiring me if I told them, don't worry because the people who are working a lot, right? So three hour blocks, they would probably never hire an organizer. If that was the thing I had just recently somebody, normally I want to have the client be there the first time, at least that was no, but this was, it was two days before.
And my wait list is really long right now. I assume that's why she was like no, come anyway. Okay. I got to the run of the house for the first session. And I even said you wanted things custom. She's I don't care. Just go in and do something. It was so much fun because I got to just be in my own world, absorbing the space.
They were thrilled. It was great. And now I've worked another session with them and it was. It's been so awesome. So stay open minded to that. That can be the day.
Melissa Klug: Open minded. Yeah. I have one client who she's lovely. I absolutely love her, but she told me flat out in the nicest possible way. She goes, the less I have to interact with you, the happier I'm going to be.
And I'm like, I gotcha girl. Yep. No problem.
Melissa Gugni: I hear variations of that too. Or where I say Oh, we can schedule it all together. No, I do not want that. Gotcha. It's going to go a lot faster. Of course. Anyway.
Melissa Klug: That's what's the ability down. Yeah. Ability is the key to this business. And I know that is a word that there are some organizers that are like, no, thank you.
But I believe that to be true. So yeah.
Melissa Gugni: I agree. I think that being my superpower is where it's why I am where I am right now. Yeah. Not only that with a thriving business, but that I love this work. Like it's fantastic. But I wouldn't have called myself the most flexible person 10 years ago.
Doing this type of work has really helped me. Yeah.
Melissa Klug: And keeping yourself open to being able to make changes, I think that's the biggest thing is, like I said, when I started my business, I thought XYZ and then I realized very quickly, nope, off the table, like you, you do have a lot of situations where you have to pivot.
I think the earlier you learn that in your business, and by the way, if it's going to take a while, totally fine. It's never too late to learn. It's, you can teach an old dog new tricks, as I have discovered with myself, you sure can.
Melissa Gugni: And it's probably worth mentioning this too, to anybody who's new or thinking about this, that can be really difficult.
I know I struggled with that too, if you want to be able to tell people how you work, what your process is, or have something very clear. Maybe it's on the website. And I actually had that initially on my website of like steps. I realized I can't do that because. There's, there's vague stuff. The calling comes first or whatever, but having it be super clear and I thought, how are people going to respond to that?
They respond great to it because I feel like I'm just, I customize it to what you need and this is how we're going to do it. And I think when you can talk about that confidently. People feel great about it. So I don't know. I know that's probably just like a particular type of personality that I have, but if that's something that's concerning everybody or anybody, just know that can even itself out over time as you talk more about your work to people.
Melissa Klug: Absolutely. Anything that you want to chat about other than what we just did?
Is there anything that we did not cover?
Melissa Gugni: I think we covered everything and then some. I love talking to you.
Melissa Klug: This is so fun. I know. I love talking to you, too. I just wanted to make sure that I had gotten everything.
Melissa Gugni: I'm not promoting anything. I'm just promoting sleep. Get your sleep.
Melissa Klug: Promoting sleep. Let's talk about this because I didn't, no sleep, not sleep properly last night. Okay. We're gonna go fully off the rails on this podcast. I have not been sleeping well this week and I feel so much better when I get it, it's so simple. When I get good sleep, I'm just a better human. Just a better human. Yep.
Melissa Gugni: I learned this time and time again. I, there's nothing more important than sleep and rest.
Melissa Klug: Magnesium is very helpful for me right before I go to bed. I definitely sleep better, but I have this aura ring, which gives you all sorts of measures about your life and your stress and everything it gives you. So when you wake up in the morning, it gives you a sleep score and it gives you a readiness score.
score. So it's like, how ready are you for the day? It's based on all these measures. It measures all of your sleep and everything. And it really, it says things really nicely. So we've spent this whole podcast talking about how we can let someone down nicely. Okay. So my aura ring when you don't get good sleep. It's like, Hey, we noticed that you had a little bit of a tough night last night with sleep, but today's going to be fine.
You can catch up later. Maybe take a nap.
Melissa Klug: It's so nice when it tells you so nice, like crap.
Melissa Gugni: Wow. No, I think that's why I'm afraid of those types of things, because I feel like I'd wake up and be like, did I sleep well? Oh, it says I didn't. Oh, it says I got up at seven. It's going to be the worst.
Melissa Klug: It's true. You can do that. I will be honest with you. There are some mornings I don't connect it because I'm like, I don't want to have the score of how poorly I slept last night. So we're going to be good.
Melissa Gugni: Yeah, I know. I know. That's really cute.
Melissa Klug: Yeah. But I have, I'm going to have him on the podcast. My brother is a human performance researcher. He's incredibly smart and he works with professional athletes and all sorts of people, the military, all sorts of things. And he is just a big believer in data of all kinds. And so it's just one of those things where I'm like, Oh, I have to see in writing, like in numbers, how poorly I've slept, but I want to have him on the podcast because I want to talk about how different things impact us as organized.
Cause it's such a physical, it's a physical job and it's an emotional job.
Melissa Gugni: There is. Oh, I know. And I think, even though it's another one of those buzz, buzzword phrases, but self care is so important for us. It is so physically strenuous and emotionally, mentally, all of the things that, yeah. Sometimes I wonder why can't I do more sessions if people want to book me?
It's I can't, I physically can't do it.
Melissa Klug: Yeah. And just making sure you take care of us. I read a great article the other day that was like, let's stop telling women to just go take a bath and relax. And it was a great episode because it was like, basically there are no other options that women have or just go take a bath.
I will say I love a good bath though. But. Love a good bath. But it was just talking about how this whole idea of self care is not just go have a spa day, go, go take a massage. It's much bigger than that. It's a more holistic view of taking care of yourself. It's nutrition and exercise and sleep and all of those things.
Melissa Gugni: So social time, quiet time. All of the things. There's another podcast. Yes. You have me back. I got a lot. Have you back?
Melissa Klug: We’ll just make it the Melissa and Melissa podcast from here on out.
Melissa Gugni: Word.
Melissa Klug: Yes. Thank you so much for joining us again. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much.
Melissa Gugni: This is just the best.
Melissa Klug: It really is.
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