185 | "I Quit!!!" --the How and Why of Exiting a Bad Client Situation
Have you ever wanted to say to a client, “I Quit!!” Today we are going over the how and why of exiting a bad client (or not starting with them at all!)
One thing we encounter in our Inspired Organizer group a lot is, "How do I tell someone I don't want to work with them?"
Today's guest is Melissa Gugni of Melissa Gugni Organizing in the San Francisco Bay area, and we are talking about this challenging situation and how you can approach it, and the hows and the whys and all of that. We know it's hard, and we want to take away some of the difficulty for professional organizers!
You can listen here, read the full transcript below, or find us on Apple, Spotify, or anywhere you love to listen to podcasts!
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This is where I have felt the most personal and professional growth that I have felt in many years—being able to be okay with, “I need to let this go.” and really be okay and really be at peace with it.
-Melissa Gugni
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Hey pro organizers. It's Melissa. And I am back to confuse people. because once again. My guests on the podcast is also named Melissa. So Melissa Gugni was on the podcast a few months ago, we had an awesome conversation about boundaries and all sorts of things, but she wrote to me, she sent me an email and she goes, Hey, I have something really specific I want to talk about. And it was a nice meaty topic. One that I love talking about. So we went a bunch of different directions on this. I'm dividing it up into two podcasts cause we've had some longer podcasts lately. And I know that we like to keep them a little bit. Bite-size like, kind of on the way to a client sort of length. So we are going to divide it up into two different parts.
I'm going to be honest with you. We were all over the place. We were like topic here, a topic there. Squirrel. Um, but we talked about a lot of great stuff as I was relistening to this as I was editing it, I was like, oh, I forgot. We talked about that. That was great. Um, I guess I was patting myself on the back.
I don't know, but I loved this conversation and it's really about the deep stuff of working with clients, which is something that I truly adore. So. I'm just going to get right into it. With my guest, Melissa of Melissa Gugni Organizing in the bay area, have an awesome day organizers.
Melissa Klug: You were back on because you sent me an email and you had something pretty specific and important that you wanted to talk about.
And you're like, I know I was on the podcast, but maybe we should talk about this. And I'm like, Oh, we should talk about this. So why don't you tell me what was on your mind. Yeah. Okay.
Melissa Gugni: well, I kept having this thought in my head was like, this would be so fun to bounce off Melissa how and why to quit a client.
Yes. I think how I worded it, because I've heard this a lot in the business world is how to fire a client. Yes. But I have never been comfortable with. With that, that feels so harsh in light of the work that we do, maybe other industries firing a climate that makes perfect sense, but to be in somebody's home and in their things and just by nature as an organizer that I think that we're kind of, we're doers and givers were mostly women that I think that's, can be such an intimate relationship.
It's a real mind puzzle of. This isn't working for X, Y and Z, but can I let them down and what would happen if I did? And there's no rule book about well, I shouldn't say that there is, of course, if you really feel like you're in danger. And I'd like to also just say that off the top, if it's an unsafe work environment, for whatever reason, that's not what I'm talking about.
But I will say it is such a nuanced thing to go through and I think because most of us are, even if you have a team, you're a solo entrepreneur it's just this thing in the head of should I, shouldn't I don't know what to do.
Melissa Gugni, today’s podcast guest
It's very tough. And I've been in business for myself, it's 20 years this year through many different businesses. I have a lot of experience with this and I was very challenged by this. Till like last week this has been very new skills for me and I told you in the email This is where I have felt the most personal and professional growth that I have felt in many years Is being able to be okay with I need to let this go and really be okay really be at peace with it
Melissa Klug: well, there are so many things that we need to get into but I just don't want to forget.
Was there something? specific that drove you? Was there a turning point where you're like, Oh, I need to be better at this. And here's how you did it. Or was it just a gradual thing?
Melissa Gugni: Well, I'd say both. There wasn't one thing that just was like, Oh, this is it.
Sometimes there's an abrupt end, which I had. There's also the, I've been working with you for a long time and I don't think this is serving us anymore and I think it was a lot of different ends. I was working with a friend and I even ended that and that was kind of a mutual decision.
It was all of it together, and I can explore the different aspects of how it's come about
Melissa Klug: too. let me just go back and say one of the reasons I think this is really important to talk about, and I appreciate your approach to it a lot because you're right. People do use the phrase fire a client.
And while, there might be some that is the right phrase. There are a few, right? But I think one of the reasons that we hesitate to take this leap is for exactly the reason that you said is it is personal. We feel guilty. We do want to help people. Sometimes the people who are most in need of help are the people that we actually can't help in some cases that are the people that we need to move on from.
And that leads to a lot of emotions and feelings. But the reason that we need to talk about this is because in our Inspired Organizer group, which has People from all across the globe of all different, lengths of time in their business, from brand new to 20 years, this question comes up a lot.
And we always see the, people will tell the story and they'll be like, here's my situation. How should I handle this? And because it comes up so much, it's very clear that we all struggle with this. Whether it's as empathetic feeling people or just as business people like, Oh my gosh, but this is a client that's going to bring me money and maybe I should take them.
There are a lot of things that go into the soup.
Melissa Gugni: I think similar to you in that I am kind of a, let's give it a try kind of girl. I'm not a person that's got tons of, Oh, I've red flag here, there, and everywhere.
And I think that learning the skill has actually helped me be more open, right? Because I can say not sure if this maybe it's something just as simple as I'm not sure if this person is ready, or it doesn't really sound like this person wants to do it. It sounds like maybe their adult son wants them to do it.
Well, you never know it can work out. Right. So maybe I'll give it a try because I feel like I feel stronger in myself to be able to say we do a session and then it's You know what? My sense is that this isn't going the way you want it to, or this isn't achieving what you want.
Do you want to continue? Should we put this on hold? Something I see a lot in the Inspired Organizer group, is the, Oh, I should have known. I should have seen the signs.
Oh, this happened. I should. Okay. Let me tell y'all you didn't and it's fine because everything's
Melissa Klug: fine until it isn't. It's okay.
Melissa Gugni: We all miss the sign sometimes everybody. Sometimes you just need to take a chance and then it's very easy to go back. You know what hindsight's 2020 go back. Oh, sure. I should have known they said that whatever.
It's fine. You can move on and you can change your mind and say, Okay. Let's put a pin in this or I'm not the right organizer. I can refer you to somebody else. I had a situation and this was maybe the most dramatic for me. Last year I had somebody get in touch, needed an organizer, had worked with an organizer before.
And I mean, I feel kind of silly even saying this because I think we all hear. Oh, uh, I'm a hoarder. Right? Or always I'm a hoarder. You're this is the worst house you're ever going to see. Well, he kind of said that yet at the same time, then he was like, Oh, I'm not really a hoarder. And I'm like, I get it. Of course you're not.
Well, I actually think he was.
Melissa Klug: Yeah, sometimes there's self identifying correctly. It happened to me the other day, too. Yeah. Oh, no, you were spot on.
Melissa Gugni: I know. And there, along with that, I think there was some other mental illness. There was just a lot going on and I had to bow out and that was the one where I knew, just in my soul, it was like, I cannot go back.
There's no way. And I was not worried that I was going to be harmed by him physically for the record. Sure. That's truly clear. But it was like, I, there's no way my feet will not walk me into that home again. And so I had to just say. You know what? This wasn't the right fit for me. And I think I talked to the group about that one too, because I didn't even feel comfortable referring him.
Most of the organizers I would refer to are more like me. Like I don't have a person with credentials in working, so I didn't even give a referral and I never heard back from him and I refunded his money and it was fine. So that was a call I had to make. And I did the best I could, and I, and that took a lot for me to not, again, Oh, there was this warning sign this morning.
You know what? It's okay. And I still believe the two out of the four sessions I did with him, we did accomplish something. It wasn't as if I was just standing there going, I don't even know what to do. But you know, maybe he got something from it.
And now, and this is sort of the soulful, maybe a little woo part of this is. By letting that go, I have freed myself because now I don't have to be doing the thing and how do I do this? But I freed him too because now he is free to find somebody who would be a better fit for him.
Melissa Klug: Yeah. Right. And I think that is, if people don't listen to anything else in this whole podcast, that I think is the biggest thing is.
When you do this, it weighs on you, right? That's why people post in our group about it, because they are, anxious about it, or they're stressed out about it, or it's just something that's not a fun thing to do, right? It's not a fun conversation to have. It's not something that you enjoy doing, unless you are a sociopath which none of us are, to my knowledge, but.
Not an organizer. No. When you are done with the conversation, when you rip the band aid off, you feel immeasurably better because you knew that it wasn't a good fit for you or it's not a good fit for your skills or it's a, a health hazard to you in some way or just an emotional hazard. And that is something that you want to remember.
This conversation might be difficult, but what's on the other side is really what needs to happen.
Melissa Gugni: Yes. That's right. And it's highly personal, too. And I think it's very important to bounce these ideas off people you trust. But ultimately, it's up to you. What might be totally fine for you, it would be no way for me.
And that has to do with our personalities and our experience, professional experience, so that's the other thing that I'd say, to be careful. Take what I guess, just take what you like from what you're hearing, but ultimately it's about getting in touch with yourself and what's okay and not
Melissa Klug: okay with you.
And that is a great point because I, like you referenced earlier you and I tend to be more like, yeah, sure. I'll try it people. And I have worked in hoarder homes and I have worked in, minimalist homes and I've worked in, uh, studio apartments and great big houses. I've done a little bit of everything.
I will move you all do pretty much whatever you want, but that doesn't work for everyone. So a situation that I might be okay saying, I'll take a leap on this might be someone else's absolutely hard pass, but you also on the flip side, just because someone else is saying that would be a hard pass for me, doesn't mean it has to be a hard pass for you.
You get to make. All of those rules. So take the advice, but also 100 percent of the time, trust your gut of what your gut is telling you about the situation.
Melissa Gugni: Definitely. And like all the things in organizing and I guess in life, it gets easier the longer you do this. Totally. This was this client in particular, this was a more advanced thing that had that come around early in my career.
Even with me having a lot of business experience, I would have really been flustered. But I think it was more, I'm very aware that I can be thrown in a lot of situations. And be fine, I can, to use the psychological terms I can self regulate. So even if it's really chaotic or I'm like, it might be a moment, but it's no, I'm good.
I'm cool. I know where I am, but I can't imagine that would have gone very well earlier. So I put that out there to the newer people. Just know if you're having a harder time I don't know what to do. It's normal. It will get easier.
Melissa Klug: It definitely does. And I, we're probably going to be bouncing all around here, but I do want to go back to something that you said.
Sorry guys, just stick with us. We're going to get there. But I want to go back to say, I know there's so many things to talk about. I do what you said about don't beat yourself up. If you missed, let's just call them red flags, right? Like it is okay. Because that is also part of the learning process
and I know at least for me and my journey . I definitely ignored signs for certain clients. And then I still, I totally did the I can handle that even though everything in my brain was going, but no, you can't, or maybe don't, maybe no, you don't want to. And what that leads to is it puts you in a bad situation.
You get resentful. I always say at the moment that you feel maximally resentful, that's when you need to start evaluating what part do I play in this, what role do I have in, I keep saying yes to these things and maybe I need to not ignore these signs. And like you said, there is a kindness in not saying yes to something that is really not a good fit for you.
It's not a kindness to you. And to your point, it's not a kindness to them.
Melissa Gugni: Yep, absolutely. And I think that brought up a lot of things for me to the resentment and I remember we talked a lot about that in the boundaries episode. That's what I know that I personally want to avoid because once you kind of go down that slope, you're there.
But the good news is, as we talked before, you get to change your mind. And I feel like that's something that we all need to say and hear a lot because we want to be consistent. Back to the example of, well, I don't want to take this X, Y, and Z because then I'm known as the person that does X, Y, and Z.
No, that's not true. You can give it a try and say, no, that's not what I do. I'm not good at it. And I think that's also tricky. It takes a lot. And I can say this now that I've been doing this for a long time, but I'm a lot more open to say, I'm just not good at that. Where I think when I was younger.
Very more inexperienced. It was like, it makes total sense. It's like kind of that. Oh, I can do that. I can do that. I can do that. I'm going to do that. And that's great. I think that's part of figuring it out. But there's some things that I'm not good at. And then my I have a friend who's not in organizing, but she would be the one to remind you what would it be like if you just said, I don't like doing that.
And in the beginning, I think it was sort of that Midwest thing in me, your Midwest, that it was like, you can't say you don't like to do it. This is work. You just have to do it. No. What if it was, I
Melissa Klug: just don't like doing that. Okay. What does someone say to that? Ultimately it's up to me. Well, and I know that originally that, the purpose when we first got on was really talking about the client experience, but you're moving to something that I do want to touch on, which the thing that when you started saying all this, the thing that just kept spotlighting in my mind and my own experience is I used to say, Oh yeah, I'll eBay that for you.
Oh, yeah. I'll put that on Poshmark for you. Yeah, for sure. I will totally take this entire China collection that you have and find a home for it. My garage got complete, it was a complete nightmare and it was, it, that is one thing that I just said yes sure. And then I never actually executed on it really well because I hated it.
And because it was time consuming and it didn't really make me money and blah, blah, blah, all the things. I realized, no, I just say, I don't actually do that, but I'd be happy to look around and see if I could find you someone who does do that. Or I will just explain to them, you know what, you're probably going to get more money from the tax write off than you will from putting it on Poshmark.
So there, I just have found other things to say to clients. Oh,
Melissa Gugni: and I feel you there because I think it's always that first I want to get those things out of their house. So it's like, what can I do with this? And it's almost like I have to just bite your tongue. Right.
Melissa Klug: Take a breath. Don't say it.
Don't say it.
Melissa Gugni: Yes. I don't want to take those things. We can figure something else out, but it's going to be kind of a lot of work. That's somebody else's area of expertise. And this may resonate to some people who are listening, but here in San Francisco, garbage is a really big deal. It's very expensive.
The garbage company will only take, so it's a very difficult thing. And that was a hard one too. I don't want my car full of garbage. Yeah, that's that. So I think in the beginning Oh yeah, I'll take it. Where am I supposed to take it? I don't know where to take it. And to go to the dump, that's just to pay to go to the dump.
It's like a minimum of 80. No, we call a hauling company, but that was me just being like, I just want to wrap this session up with a bow. Let me take it for you and never worry about it again. I wish I could, but that's. That I can't do
Melissa Klug: and that's the people. Please. I mean this all goes to people pleasing right like we and even if you're not like a super people pleaser.
I happen to be I'm a recovering or current people. I don't know. I'm working on it. But I think it's part of we want our clients to be maximally happy. We want to leave them going, Oh my gosh, that made such a huge difference for me. And I'm going to tell all my friends about you. Or you want them also not to put the things back in their closet or any of the things, right?
And so we're like, cool, let me create 10 problems for myself trying to maybe solve one problem that might not actually be a problem for the client. Maybe they're fine taking out their own garbage or whatever it may be. Right.
Melissa Gugni: And lo and behold, these problems do get solved. Right. Yep. They do. That's the other thing.
Melissa Klug: Also, I will just say on a total side note, I do take away recycling and garbage for clients because I have, we have very easy garbage here. Sorry. And I have multiple garbage cans and whatever. But my car has been a biohazard on more than one occasion. It's it's kind of gross. So like you can also just say it's not my jam.
I can't do it. Yep.
Melissa Gugni: Yep. And I think being clear on that. I don't know. It seems to work, I think just saying no, that of course people just want that taken care of, but it's oh, okay, well, yeah, we'll get a hauling company done.
Melissa Klug: Well, uh, sorry, I have zigged and zagged all over the place, but let's talk about kind of the core thing, but like the actual client.
situation that you get in and you realize for whatever reason this isn't working. Can you give us some of your thoughts or examples on, some of the different things that you have seen and then how you handle them?
Melissa Gugni: So some of the things I've seen, I had a client early in my organizing career.
Who I'm very grateful to, and I have a lot of actual love for. I worked with her every week for over a year. She came to me. It was an older woman who was given a short time to live. It was very dramatic and getting her affairs in order. And fortunately got on a different treatment. And so it was doing better and she is still alive.
But That was the first one where after a year I had veered from organizing into personal assistant, lots of work on the computer, which is the last thing in the world that I have any interest in doing. But it was also, even though, again, I have a lot of love for this woman. She was so draining and negative that I just would leave just feeling awful every time and she would complain about how much I charged and over again, I'd say, if you don't want me to continue, you're not under a contract here, or, you could end anytime you want and no, but she would spend a whole hour of her paid time complaining about it. It was just it was a lot and there kind of became like a midpoint where I thought part of my job, even though I'm being paid is being of service to people who need my work. And so I could kind of, all right and I'm bound.
I've got a lot of boundaries. It was like, I can deal with this. And it makes me laugh. You know how they say if somebody says something that doesn't apply to you, it's not going to trigger you. Right. So she would say things sometimes that I would be like, I don't know what you're talking about, but she would do it for an hour and it would wear me down. Or I think this isn't actually triggering me, but you're just like, I'm so exhausted from this negativity.
So in the end. I had to bow out, I said, I really need to focus on real organizing. And it was a feeling of fear in me because here I had a consistent client every single week when I was starting to build up my business. And it gave me confidence that I always have this client, regardless of what was going on.
Once I let that go, I felt like I had lost a hundred pounds, and this was three hours a week. And that really taught me something about this is for real, right? If. I'm feeling that stifled in a job. She was very controlling too. I had no freedom in the job. I have a lot of freedom as an organizer.
Like I gravitate towards that. I don't want to be micromanaged, but that was for me. For some people that might not be an issue at all, or they like having a lot of direction. But that really took it out of me. So I think what I'm getting at is I love, love, love my job. I love the variety of it. And even when I have a more difficult client or let's say not my favorite client, I don't dread going, which is so interesting to me.
So when I do dread going, which is very rare. It's there, right? Yeah.
Melissa Klug: This is a really important one because I actually had it written down as one that I was going to bring up. And I have talked about this before, kind of inside some of our groups, but I don't know that I've ever talked about it on the podcast, but I had a client.
Very nice woman. I mean, really nice. But her kids walked all over her. Her ex husband walked all over her. Her boyfriend appeared to walk all over her. Everybody just walked all over her. And I it was so frustrating to see because I'm like, stand up for yourself, girl. But there was a lot there.
There was a lot happening there. And working with her was Extremely challenging for me and the key thing that I found myself when I would work with her, she needed a lot of reassurance and a lot, and that's fine. That's something I can offer, but it was to the point that it was really interfering with our sessions.
Like we weren't really getting anything done. It was very difficult for me to handle too. And I'm a pretty patient person. And there was just a, there was a time. This is how I really knew. I Almost never in a session will look at my watch. Like I will check the time occasionally and be like, okay, are we on track?
Are we what, how much time we have left? Whatever do if we have a hard stop, whatever. I would look at my watch when I was with her. I swear to you, like every 10 minutes and go, are we done? Oh, no, I still have an hour and 30 minutes left. Oof, two hours and 45 minutes left. You don't say I've been here for 15 minutes.
It feels three hours and I just had this moment where I'm like, I can't. I can't go back there. When you reach that realization don't turn off that realization. And look at some of those smaller clues of yourself of, I'm looking at my watch constantly. I had someone tell me, talk to me about this the other day with a client like hers.
She goes, should I just keep collecting the 400 and going there every week? And I'm like, I can't answer that question, but I can answer the other questions you're at your, asking, which is that is how you feel about her. And it's really wrecking the quality of your sessions and your feelings about your work.
So if you love your work, and then you go to a client where you really hate your job. That is a sign. It is.
Melissa Gugni: Yeah. Oh, the looking at the watch thing, though. You're so right. I felt like that at this one. I was like, Oh my God, only three minutes has gone by. How
Melissa Klug: can it only take 30
Melissa Gugni: seconds? It's like when you're in a boring class in school.
I'll just go to the
Melissa Klug: bathroom for 15 minutes.
Melissa Gugni: Anyway. Oh my gosh. So funny. The other thing, though, that I'll bring up is, setting the boundary. And I think you, you alluded to this earlier about what's our part in it. And that takes a little, it can't be done in time. I feel like it takes a little bit of reflection, but with this particular client, I really did try to say, Hey, we need to focus me more on organizing.
I can't listen to this all the time, and I, a lot of time, cause she would try to personalize it to me to get me riled up. And I'd say, we're here to talk about you. I did these things a lot. It wasn't working. Right. And so that also made it clear. Now, your results may vary. Like you, you have to decide on your own how what, how that's going to work for you.
And certain times it just has to be like, I just have to be done. But I have a client right now. Actually. And it always makes me laugh. I come home and tell my husband about it. He's just Oh my God. I'm like, I know, but you know, I have a feeling it's going to get better. And it has. She's just a very tough woman.
Very aggressive and not particularly nice. I feel like in general, I'm treated with a lot of respect. There's not a lot of respect there. And so I had to kind of step out of it because I was like, huh, I don't really love how I'm being treated here, but I really don't believe that it's personal.
Generally it is not personal. Right. But if it does, if it feels personal, that might be a reason to
Melissa Klug: get up, but it feels personal. Even if it's.
Melissa Gugni: Yes, I started just really setting a boundary where it was like, okay, you're throwing a lot at me. I'm actually gonna get in my notepad and start writing things down because then I could be like no, wait, and I came up with some strategies, including me saying, I'm not doing that.
Yeah, and she wanted, I don't want to get into the specifics because it's a client, but wanted me to do something that was like, it was very unsafe. I was just like, no, I'm not doing that. And I think she was just oh, and I think in the past I would have thought, oh, please just don't ask me to do something I don't want to do because I don't want to start something.
But now it's like, what have I got to lose? If we can't work this out, I'm going to have to leave this job. So I might as well just let you know how I'm feeling about it. And we'll take it at face value. And if you say, no, I need that to be something that you do fine. Okay. It's all right. I'll refund you.
And off I go. Yeah. It's gotten a lot better though, because honestly, I don't know what happened. If it's just my energy shifted or she picked up on, I have no clue, but it's gotten a lot better.
Melissa Klug: I wonder just listening to your story, if because you push back on her, she's not used to people doing that. And all of a sudden she's wait a minute.
I might've met a match. It might have just been like a little bit of a test or, you have a subconscious or conscious, but yeah, and that, but that's the power of what you're talking about is you can just say, Nope, that doesn't work for me, or, it doesn't have to be a big thing.
It can just be, sorry, I can't do that. You don't have to over explain it. I'm an over explainer. That's great. Yeah. You can just say. Sorry, I can't do that. And if they ask why you can give them, you can give them an answer maybe, but that is really important that you can keep those boundaries and not take someone who is really aggressive or assertive and then have them run all over you.
Melissa Gugni: Yeah, agreed. And I think that, that brings up the knowing thyself thing too, because you and me, I'm game for things. Yeah. And because I know that about myself, when I say I'm not going to do it, that's that's good information because I do all kinds
Melissa Klug: of things. Right. Yeah. Like I'm really. Your threshold for what's okay is a lot wider.
So if you're beyond that, you are really pushing the limits. Yep. Exactly. I want to talk a second about something that, that kind of sparked in me. And this was something that came up in the group the other day too was, uh, it came up on one of our Zooms actually, our clients who are really controlling.
So they have hired you as a professional organizer, theoretically they've hired you because you are the expert and you have skills they don't have, but the client is I'm going to tell you what to do. And the, that person is directing all of the work. Have you had experiences with that?
Melissa Gugni: Oh yeah. So many thoughts. Uh, and I have quite a controlling streak in me too. So I'll put that off. That takes one to no one. Sometimes I can see it a mile away and it's okay, how's this going to go? So many different things can happen with that.
Sometimes I really have to just give people grace that when I first come into their home, that can really bring up a lot of feelings for them. And I just had a client recently that it, I'm not sure if it was full control, but there was just so much anxiety and just talking a mile a minute. And this is an.
I had again, the dysregulation, like I started to get really panicky and I had to kind of leave my mind a minute and go, this is you're picking up on her, take some deep breaths. I'm fine. And I was, and sure enough, by the end of the session, which went really well, I've really liked her a lot. She had calmed down a lot.
I did second session last week. It went great. So sometimes it is just that. Getting to know, it's, I know we all know this, but even people who have, it's all a judgment call, but like homes that are quite put together or maybe they just have a bunch of kids and that's why things are crazy, but it's I think got nothing to be ashamed of here.
You're doing great. We don't know what they're going through. I think that brings up so much shame that someone's coming in. It's Oh, gosh, you're going to judge me, right? So I think really exuding that and I always put a lot of focus on that kind of as I'm walking up to the door the first time in my mind of come from a really open hearted place without judgment, so that they can really feel that and get comfortable.
So that is part of the control thing. But for clients that do really want to micromanage. Gosh, I mean that has been an evolution so many different things and I think these are the themes you're gonna know right away Some people you can get somewhere, it just takes earning trust over time. Some people I've gotten nowhere.
And I kind of have to just focus on, I'm still doing good work here. And when it's done. And it's definitely never going to be my favorite job. I just finished with a family and I did a lot of sessions with them. And I really liked them and they had a baby. It was just a lot going on.
I get it. But the house they were so overwhelmed with stuff. And I mean, I worked there 30 hours, got rid of maybe two garbage bags worth of stuff, including trash. They just were not interested. And I know that many of us in the group are, uh, we focus on decluttering. I'm not a, that's not like a credential for working with me.
It's fine. You want to declutter? You don't, I'll meet you where you are. So, standing by that, though, I had to say every session, twice a session, that's fine if you want to keep 900 pairs of shoes. But when you came to me, you did say you're overwhelmed with stuff. It's hard for me to believe you really wear all of these shoes.
Nope. I don't want to get rid of anything. Okay. All right. Moving on. Right. And my guess is probably one day, maybe in a year or 20 years, she may remember that conversation, right? But I can't force
Melissa Klug: it. I think one of the, one of the things is and I talk about this a lot in our organizing essentials group is there is often a disconnect between what a client will speak with their mouth and what actually.
Is in the brain and actually happening is they will say, I mean, and I gave an example one day is one of my treasured dearest clients. I love her so much. I will be at her house for many more years. As long as I have a business, I think she texted me and she was like, Oh, I'm really ready to do it now.
And I'm like. Okie doke. And, uh, and she, and I get there and she's no, I really am ready. And then it was like, maybe five minutes later, she's but that is a good rubber band. I might use it. I'm like, oh my gosh, it's halfway. It's halfway ripped. No, you said you were ready. So I think that we have to just accept that ultimately we cannot force a client to do anything and you can only do exactly what you did is remind them.
This is what you told me at the beginning of our time. Sometimes that causes people to go, Oh man, you're right. That is my bad. And sometimes it causes them to entrench further and be like, you are not taking a pair of my shoes lady. They're not leaving my house.
Melissa Gugni: Yeah. And I mean the other thing being all the, everything we're talking about is relative to I'm in so many homes.
I can say, in my opinion, I know what a big call is compared to a non call. So this person, getting rid of two pairs of shoes was probably like, that was the hugest deal in the world for sure. What is Melissa talking about? I did purge. When I was newer to this and I had such a clear vision, right.
That this is how I want it to be. That was really hard. If I could, if I didn't get over that, I couldn't keep doing this right. Like that. I just couldn't .
Melissa Klug: I also try to remind myself if I'm having one of those especially with controlling clients, and I think there are different categories of controlling clients, some of them want to tell you what you're going to do, some of them want to guide all of the work you are just an assistant, some of them are just, very entrenched, whatever, there are a lot of different things, but I try to I also try to remind myself that you may be exactly what they need at that time.
You are not up to your full capabilities and they are not going to get your full potential as a partner, but you still might be doing something that is actually helpful to them. You don't view it as helpful, but they do. And ultimately they get to make that choice. And I tell people all the time, you don't, I, people will say a lot, well, they just are wasting their money.
I go, you don't get to tell them how they get to spend their money.
Melissa Gugni: I know. Yep. And it takes a while to, for that to sink in. Right. Because I'm so I'm fast. I personally don't like to waste money. I am not a person with a drawer full of gift cards. I'm just not like that. So it was always like, come on let's get this moving.
Right. But you're right. And this family, when I got this lovely email saying how much they loved having me there, I was. Kind of surprised because it was like, God, I sure didn't feel like I got all the things I wanted done, but coming to look at it now, we covered the really big things. That's huge. We set the root system, as I like to say.
Yeah. All the other stuff is still kind of crazy, but the That's fantastic. Like I, and I have to be okay with that.
Melissa Klug: Yeah. Well, and I think that what you said too about sometimes you go back to what they said at the beginning, sometimes you don't even go back to what they said at the beginning. You just do a halt.
I have had with controlling clients in particular. I have found one of the most valuable things you can do is be like, can we take a time out here just for a second? Can we just have a chat? And I did that with a client recently. Yeah. Yeah. And I just said, Hey, I just need to take a minute because I want to make sure that we're connected on what do you want me to do?
Because I was doing my job as I see my job. And she was clearly wanting something entirely different. And so it was actually really great. Because she was able to get out precisely what she needed. She's I need you to be the project director and I need you to tell me what to do. I need you to give me lots of homework.
I just want you to project direct it. I don't need you to shop for me. I don't need you to install cabinets. I don't need, and I go. Great. We have a great understanding and everything flowed so much better after that versus us like kind of tussling, right?
Melissa Gugni: Oh, yeah. And that's experimenting with that too, because I've had clients where that has worked great.
I've had other clients where it did not work at all, but putting it in an email. So I think they could read it because sometimes I think the ADHD thing can be, let's just one more thing to take in. So it was like, let's try putting it in writing. They can sit with it. And then all of a sudden that seemed to help something I use.
Melissa Klug: All
Melissa Gugni: the time is you just, how about you go and do some things for an hour? And I if everyone's not trying that, try it. I know sometimes the client says they want to work with you. Most of my clients do not want to work with me all the time. They're working from home and they have other things to do.
So it's pretty easy, but when it gets like too crazy, because I can see it. In their eyes to sometimes the micromanaging is because their stuff is all over the place and they're super overwhelmed, right? This is something I take for granted as an organizer How many times has a client said to me like oh my god, like I don't know how you're dealing with this It's oh, yeah.
No, I got this. This does not overwhelm me at all, but that can pull this like what are you gonna do? This what are you gonna do with it? It's you know what you come back in 45 minutes I'm going to make more sense of this. I'll have questions for you.
Melissa Klug: Helps so much. Yes. And like you said, sometimes you send it afterward every once in a while, I'll just phrase it as Hey, on my drive home, I was thinking about a few things.
Maybe next time we could do X, Y, Z or whatever. By the way, I was thinking about it every second I was in your house. And every second of the last time I was in your house, but yeah, just giving yourself some distance and just that kindness of Hey, I was just had a couple of ideas. So
Melissa Gugni: yes, definitely.
Well, and it's like that, that putting them first even though it's to serve our purposes ultimately so that we can continue to work together, it's symbiotic, I guess I can see that this is really a lot for you right now.
Why don't you take a break? It's okay. And I'm fine. But why don't we get a little distance here?
Melissa Klug: I believe an organizer truly reaches superpower organizer status when they are alternately doing their functional job while also reading body language and faces and words and tone of voice. In their client, and that's hard to pick up on, if you're brand new with someone, right?
But after a while I think when you're paying attention to those things, you can really start to hone in on those cues and then do the Hey, how about you just go watch a show for half an hour? Or do you know that I will be happy to do this for you? Why don't you give yourself a break? Whatever.
Yes, or the timeout thing or the whatever it looks like for you, but paying attention to those signals, I think, can really dial down a lot of the angst.
Melissa Gugni: Absolutely. And I'll add to that too, because I know for me. For all of us, sometimes there's just like all these thoughts in my head and I'm designing the closet and look there's more pencils and where, there's so many things and you're also trying to pick up on what they're doing, but it can also be put into words and that's advanced for me because I thought I really need to just be able to figure all of this out, but I can actually say now, more.
And. I'm not exactly sure how you're doing with this. Do do you feel comfortable telling me is this bringing up stuff is your mind somewhere else? Like, how is your day going? And sometimes that can be very impactful because learning to be a better communicator has really been a focus of my life in all aspects in the last few years.
And the more that I see so many people don't know how to communicate or they are not used to being communicated with much respect. So sometimes that really can bring up all kinds of really beautiful things too, where they're just like, Oh, how am I feeling? Yeah, this is a lot. Like it's okay to feel that way
Melissa Klug: or acknowledging to them.
I feel with a lot of clients, if you just say to them, I know this is hard. Yeah. If you just say. I know clearing out your closet is hard. I know looking at clothes that you wore 10 years ago before you had kids is a bummer. If you can acknowledge those feelings, because a lot of times what I see is people who feel like this is silly for them to be sad about a sweatshirt or whatever.
Yeah. And just going, no, it's okay to be sad about this or it's okay to be frustrated or it's okay. It's okay to be all those things. Letting them have those emotions. Acknowledging that. I think to your point, people. don't sometimes know that they can have those feelings and that they're okay.
Melissa Gugni: Yes, you're so right.
I was working with an older woman once and we were going through boxes of art and photos and there was a framed photo of two little kids. It was really cute. And she was kind of a more quiet, stoic woman. And she held it up and was just like, The look that she gave this picture, I just got this feeling like, Oh no, there's a sad story here.
And she was quiet for a minute. And I was like, Oh, are you doing okay? And she was like, I have no idea who these kids are. That's
Melissa Klug: awesome. You were waiting for a story of these are my cousins who were lost in a boating accident in 1942. That's amazing. I don't love that. I know. Well, I, we're just veering all over the place, but it's just story time.
I will tell this story, ask your clients questions like the right ones, right? Not every client is going to be this client, but I'll tell you, I have this client. I have worked on a photo project for him. I've talked about him a million times. I love him, but I've worked on a photo project for him for a long time.
I feel like I know his entire family, like going back generations, even though I've only ever met him. But point of the story is I was doing, I was talking to him the last time I was there. And I was like, you know what? I said, I just realized something like based on one of the photos I saw, I go, your mom was really tall and he's oh yeah, she was like 6'3 and I'm like, holy cow, she's really tall.
And I go, that means your dad was really tall. We just had this whole conversation and he launched into this poignant story about a teacher had said, and this was back in the 40s when women getting married was very important, had said to her, you're too tall, you're never going to find a husband.
And he goes, that affected her for her entire life. And just this kind of sad story, but it, anyway I'm not telling it very well, but ask your clients questions about stuff, because I love talking about it. And there are just really interesting stories there about so many things. So many
Melissa Gugni: interesting stories to tell.
That could be its own podcast there. That would be a good one to field out
Melissa Klug: amongst the group. Maybe you don't even know the people in the picture. One of those two things. Or that.
Stay tuned until later this week. And I will have the second part of my conversation with Melissa. On the Melissa and Melissa show, I guess. So I hope you enjoy that. And I hope you have an absolutely fabulous week organizers.
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