184 | Getting "ADHD Curious" With Missi McKown
This is going to be the first, and not last!, conversation we have about organizing clients with ADHD, and being an organizer with ADHD. Neurodivergence is the hot word right now--but we are diving into a discussion on how you can help clients even if you yourself aren't fully up to speed on all things in this realm.
Our guest Missi McKown is a professional organizer in the Twin Cities of Minneapolis-St. Paul, and her business Clear Spaces Organizing serves organizing clients all over from her headquarters in Maple Grove, MN.
You can listen here, read the full transcript below, or find us on Apple, Spotify, or anywhere you love to listen to podcasts!
LINKS FOR LISTENERS
Connect with Missi at Clear Spaces Organizing: CLICK HERE
Connect with Melissa and Pro Organizer Studio: CLICK HERE
If you are interested in our Inspired Organizer® program, you can find us at www.inspiredorganizer.com and don't forget, we have a whole library of podcasts here, our YouTube channel, and you can find us on Facebook and Instagram at Pro Organizer Studio.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Hey, pro organizers. It's Melissa. And we're back with our second conversation this week with Missi McKown, who is a professional organizer in the Twin Cities area. And this is a little bit of a shorter episode, but trust me, when I tell you we are going to be talking about this subject a lot more.
This is just our first entry into this very big topic. We are talking today about ADHD, and I am certain that you are starting to hear more and more from your clients and potential clients, “I have ADHD. I just want to let you know that.” and, for some people they're like, Hey, what do I do with this client?
And so we wanted to talk to Missi today because she has been diagnosed with ADHD and is a very successful professional organizer. And so she is working with her own diagnosis, and then with clients that have the diagnosis. This is just the first conversation that we are going to be having about the subject. It's definitely not the last, but I hope that this at least gives you a little bit of a flavor of what might be important if a potential client comes to you and how you can be compassionate, even if you don't understand all of the details about how to work with an ADHD or a neurodivergent brain. One book we talk about in the podcast that is an absolutely great resource, is a book by Susan Pinsky and it is called Organizing Solutions for People With ADHD. I highly recommend this book to lots of people. It's a great business expense. Go grab it.
Okay, let's start chatting with Missi about ADHD and all things wonderful about being neurodivergent and working with neurodivergent clients. Have a great day organizers.
Melissa Klug: Okay, so one of the personal things, so Missi and I went to lunch a few months ago. And you, and I'm going to let you tell your own story, obviously, but you were talking about how you had been formally diagnosed with ADHD and then you said it, by the way, in the nicest possible way, but I was like, Oh, I'm pretty sure I have it too. I'm just not diagnosed. I haven't made the appointment or whatever. And you were like, would you like me to point out a couple of things that I've learned about my journey and I was like, Now, I know I have it. I definitely have it, but you pointed out a couple things. I'm like, oh damn, she's right.
Which I love. So I totally, I love it because so many people are starting and this is going to be something that I'm going to talk about in a future podcast also with our other friend Cabri who also has ADHD. But I want you to talk about your own diagnosis and then how it affects your organizing.
Because what I see a lot more of is people are coming to our group and they're like, Oh, someone is coming to me and they have ADHD. How do I organize with them? Like it's a one step. If we just have a few tips, we'll be able to organize all and it's. It's not quite that simple. So yeah.
Missi McKown: Could we just make a flowchart?
If you have ADHD organized this way, if not organized that way, if you just use blue boxes, it'll be fine.
Melissa Klug: It's very complex but tell us a little bit about your journey on this.
Missi McKown: Well, my journey starts with my resistance to having ADHD and my yeah, just disbelief.
So I have this dear client who knows she has ADHD, and we worked really well together. Well, we're still working together. It's been years now. And every once in a while, I would say or do something and she would go, Missi, you think like me. And she's I think you have ADHD, and she was always real cute and kind of playful about it.
And I was just like, I don't think so. I really don't. But I had more and more people contacting me that knew that they had ADHD. They were saying it up front. And so I started doing what any good organizer would do. And I started researching it because I was like, well, I better know if there is something I should know that's different from how I've been helping people get organized for folks with ADHD.
So I checked out this book. From the library, my favorite place, and it's, I think it's just called Organizing with ADHD by Susan Pinsky.
Melissa Klug: Yeah, the one with all the post it notes all over the front. Yeah.
Missi McKown: Yeah, it's just perfect, right? I read through the entire book before I met with this client, and she was a doctor, by the way, with ADHD.
I read through the whole book, and I was like, well, that's already how I organize, so I guess that's just convenient. Literally drew no threads that my brain
Melissa Klug: You're really not just seeing all the signs.
Missi McKown:. No, my brain worked the same way as folks with ADHD. I was just like, oh, okay, cool. How convenient. I already do that.
Closed the book, went and worked with the client, and had great success. She was working with an ADHD coach at the time and she was sharing some of her tips and strategies. So we Implemented those into just really the systems that we were creating in her home so that she could follow it all seamlessly.
Had a great experience, right? And then more and more folks kept coming to me with ADHD and I was like, oh, this is so fun I already know what we're doing, you know, and just dove in. Then that client kept saying, Missi, you think like me, and I was like I don't. And Carly Adams, who used to be a mentor in IO she at the time was like, Hey Missi cause I told her about the Susan Pinsky book and she had read it for one of her clients.
She's like, will you come on my podcast and talk about organizing for folks with ADHD? I said, absolutely. And she goes, first though, I need you to read a second book on ADHD. And we're going to discuss that one too.
So Carly mentions this book and she's like, Hey, you need to read this book by Lisa Woodruff.It's called how ADHD affects home organization. So I'm on vacation with my husband and I'm reading this book. And it's all about at the beginning of it talking about the different executive functions of the brain and how it interacts with ADHD.
I'm sitting on a beach in Mexico, reading this book. And I'm like oh, man. I'm like, I'm literally like I'm literally highlighting it. I’m making notes.
Melissa Klug: Okay, just really quickly. I'm just trying to imagine a beach in Mexico when I go to Mexico on vacation. I'm just bringing total like just fiction mysteries.
You're on a beach and I bet people are like what a party that woman is. She's reading a book about ADHD.
Missi McKown: I mean, now you have insight into me. I've long been a fan of nonfiction. It's always been my first love. I just recently got into fiction in the last few years and I'm low key obsessed. I know you read a ton, too.
I read a crap ton of books because it's just fun. And three at a time. That's an ADHD thing. Anyway, so I'm reading this book and I started reading it out loud to my husband and I was like, Do you think this sounds like me? And he was like, oh my gosh. He literally had never considered it for me.
I had never considered it for myself. And I was like, oh. And people in my life at the time were new people that I would meet randomly at a networking event. And we'd be having this great conversation. And then they'd be like, do you have ADHD? And I was like, not that I know of. And they were like, oh, okay.
And then I actually became friends with that girl. She's now a member of the team. She's wonderful. But I asked her, I'm like, what made you say that? And she goes, Oh, we just went on so many rabbit trails. But you were tracking all of them. And it didn't seem phased by it. And I said, Oh yeah, no, that doesn't phase me.
And I'll have clients apologize to me. Sorry, I've kind of been all over the place. And I'm like, have you?
Melissa Klug: I haven't noticed.
Missi McKown: Yeah, we're good. Keep going. Anyway, I read the book and I was like, shoot, so now what?
So I was like, fine, I'm gonna go to get tested. I just am gonna go get tested and figure it out. And maybe this would explain why some days when I have an admin day, I have a really hard time deciding what to focus on first, because it all seems important, and I want to get all of it done, but then there's almost like this paralysis to it.
Man, do I have all sorts of tools now to really connect with my clients. And just a level of understanding. So I go, it's a three part test, which I mean, this is probably just an ADHD nerd thing, but I loved all the tests. I thought they were so fascinating and I wanted to know how well I did.
Yeah. Right. Did I get a, did I pass that one? I could brag about one particular one. It was the math one. And she goes, Missi, almost no one gets the last question. Right. And I was like.
Melissa Klug: You want to be like, am I better than all the other ADHD clients that you deal with? That's what I would be saying.
Missi McKown: But well, here's the other thing. She totally lied to me about one of one thing. So here's a little known fact about me. I am not the person that you want installing even your Ikea Kallax system, which has two screws, like you do not want me building something for you at all.
But I have wonderful gals on my team and guys who are really great at that. And it's to make up for me. There was this puzzle. I think it was only four pieces, and you just had to turn it into different ways to make it do different things, and I could not, for the life of me, figure it out.
And the woman giving the test, God bless her, was so kind and patient. She's like, don't worry. A lot of people struggle with that. Well, guess what? I've since become friends with a psychologist who gives ADHD tests to people. And she goes, That's not true. She goes, the puzzle part's easy. She's like, they were lying to you.
I was like, I knew it. I knew it was easy and I was screwing it up.
Melissa Klug: So I'm gonna rat myself out on something. I'm terrible. Here about stuff like that. Like I have like when you're saying this right now, I'm very old and I still have a visceral memory of the SAT. There was like to fit this thing into the like, what space does this piece fit into?
And my brain doesn't work that way. And I was with my niece a few weeks ago and she got a new game that was like, you have these Blocks and you had to put them like match them with their like pieces. She's in third grade and she was kicking legit kicking my ass. And when I say kicking my ass, I mean she would do the thing in about five seconds and I was still on the first piece and she's like, hey, Melissa, you're not very good at this. No, I'm not.
Missi McKown: Yeah, I could play with you, and she would crush me too. I mean, it's just not my gift. And now I have family members who have ADHD, and they are a whiz at putting things together. So this is also the beautiful and confounding part of ADHD, and this is why you cannot do a one size fits all answer when people in Inspired Organizer are asking hey, I have a new client with ADHD, what do I do?
Yes. Well, what do they need, is really the better question.
Melissa Klug: Because I have seen in my practice as an undiagnosed ADHD person, I have seen there's one woman I think about a lot where her manifestation was everything had to be perfect. She had to follow the KonMari method. Perfectly. She wouldn't, she didn't like my detours from it, which I find necessary for actual success.
One of the other things that I saw with her is she would get so over organized. Like she would say, well, I have tubs for everything. So it was like, One kid's toothbrush and then the other kid's toothbrush and then toothpicks and the Then she had 12 containers on her counter which then was causing so much more clutter Yeah, exactly and then you have people that are the standard, you know That are not standard the more classic or more stereotypical oh, I have this thing and then I have this thing I'm, you know kind of going all over the place and then everything in between there's nothing that says This is how you organize with an ADHD person.
You have to listen and you have to ask a lot of questions. A lot of questions, right?
Missi McKown: Because there are some folks who if they don't see it, it doesn't exist, right? So it has to be really clear. And there are some folks that if they see it, it's overwhelming and it has to be put away. Same diagnosis, totally different approach.
It, yeah, it is just asking a lot of questions. But I am obsessed with my ADHD clients. I think it's so fun. I think folks with ADHD are just more fun in general. They're creative. They're talkative. They're goofy. I knew I was just having a blast with one client. We found out that we both enjoyed musicals.
Like doing a consult or something, I think. And so when I came for the first day, she had the Hamilton soundtrack blasting. And we just sang our little hearts out as we organized her kitchen together. And had the absolute best time. Oh my gosh. And I know you do this too, because we've done it together, if someone says something, like my, and it's a song lyric, my, my brain just has to sing it.
Right. And I was working with a single guy in Minneapolis and he said something and I just sang the rest of it. And then he sang the next line and I was like, yeah.
Melissa Klug: I love it. Because the worst, the corollary of that is when someone doesn't know what you're talking about, and then they look at you really funny, and then you have to be like, well, it's a song. Never mind.
Missi McKown: I mean, I've definitely had that happen too, because obviously this is not my first rodeo that I just decided to sing randomly with a client, but I do love singing and having a good time and just being goofy. And enlightening the mood, because so many people, especially those with ADHD, have struggled with organization.
It's a tenet of ADHD, right? They are not always super excited. They're excited about the end result, but they don't really want to be involved in the nitty gritty part of the process. So anything that can just bring some levity to it, make it fun. I like to ask my clients what they like to do when they're doing something unpleasant.
If they have to clean, are they people that put music on? Do they put a movie on in the background? Do they listen to a podcast? Whatever that is, I invite that into the session. So I've absolutely organized a kitchen. With hitch on on the countertop, you know, I love movies.
And every once in a while we would stop to watch a favorite part or something or whatever, but it's just, you know, whatever you can do to help your folks with ADHD that you're serving, feel comfortable. Go for it. And if you're listening to all this and it sounds terrifying maybe working with ADHD isn't for you.
Melissa Klug: I'm always going to come back to that point. And one of the things that I was going to say a little later is one of the reasons that I love you for 1000 reasons. But one of the reasons I love you is I have you as a referral partner. So reaching out to other people in your organizing community, you know, they're theoretically competitors, but let's just not treat it that way.
If you have something that you're uncomfortable with, Please find an organizer that is comfortable with it because it's going to be better for you. It's going to be better for the client. So if I had someone that was really struggling, you're going to be my first call on that, right? Like I know that you can handle it and I know that's something that you really love.
And if you're sitting here thinking Everything they're talking about today is a total nightmare and it sounds awful, how do they even have a business? You know, find someone that is a referral partner that is comfortable with that.
Missi McKown: Yeah, it's the same way that I'm still looking for someone who really enjoys working with hoarders.
So if you're in the Twin Cities and you like working with hoarders, please send me a message.
Melissa Klug: Yeah. Well, this is a good example because I don't think I've talked about this on the podcast, but I have a client that told me she loved me last week. Because she does. I worked with her dad one time and I was too much for him.
I was a little too energetic or too, like he needed someone different. And she was so nice. She was like, listen, I love you so much, but my dad needs someone that's just real slow and real methodical. And this will sound bad because I was like, I know the perfect person for you. It's Missi. You are not slow methodical, but I was just like, I just had this feeling.
I'm like, I feel like Missi's going to be a better energetic and personality match than I was. And it did not hurt my feelings that this client was like, you're not my dad's cup of tea because all I care about is her dad. That makes sense. And Missi and I have a lot of things we're aligned on, but there are things that she's way better at than I am.
And so I am going to send that referral to her because I think it's important for people to get. Who they really need. It's not about me getting in the business.
Missi McKown: Absolutely. It's about people getting what they need out of the experience.
Melissa Klug: Have you changed anything about since your diagnosis, have you changed anything about how you do your business?
Like your processes or just things that you've discovered about yourself?
Missi McKown: That’s a good question, man. Okay. I. I have not been super upfront about having ADHD because I feel that there's still a stigma around it. Some folks are just, they see it more as a detriment. I was talking to, I'll just say a family member because I don't want to out them, but I was talking to a family member about it and I was like can you just envision with me this is what I think of when I think of the future, that ADHD is going to be seen for the superpower that it is, and people are going to be clamoring for a legitimate diagnosis on their resume.
Because people with ADHD are such hard workers. They're so focused. They're so driven. I mean, there are such positives that come from it and. And I think that not a lot of people see it as a positive yet. Though some of the people that do have it totally can recognize their ability to super focus and get a lot done and way more done in a shorter amount of time than, say, a neurotypical person, right?
Because you can just block out the world and get in the zone, right? And that's awesome when that happens. I think I tend to do that sometimes on my organizing projects, sometimes with certain team members, I'll be like, if you see me just going too far in, just call me out, you know? Call me out.
If you need something just tap me on the shoulder. Because I'm going in. But man, it's just. There's something beautiful about it and I have been more comfortable when somebody else tells me about their own diagnosis, I feel more comfortable talking about mine than to be like, I get it. I get where you're coming from.
I can see how this is frustrating for you and I can also see a path forward because that's the other beautiful thing about an ADHD brain. All they want to do, and this is a client who taught me this, she said, all an ADHD brain wants to do is solve problems all day. And she goes, so you walk into somebody's house and you go, I see how I can fix this.
I can make this better for you. I can make this a space that you're going to want to be in and want to spend time in. And she goes, I have an ADHD brain, but I can't do that in my own house. And I'm like, yeah, you're too close to it. I mean, I've also had an organizer in here helping me organize my office because I was too close to it.
I mean, they asked the same kind of questions that I ask at a consult, but I was like, surprised by my own answers. I was like, oh yeah, there is a better spot for that. That makes way more sense.
Melissa Klug: I've pointed this out before. Therapists have their own therapists, right? We all, when it's our own stuff, you just don't see it as clearly.
In the same way that we'll go into a client's house and be like, Why can't they fix this? This was so easy. They're going to pay me a lot of money to fix this very easy thing. They can't see the path. We see the path. But when it's your own stuff it is so much less clear. That is common for everyone.
Missi McKown: Yeah, that's true.
Melissa Klug: So when do you think I mean, because I feel like one of the things that it's definitely happened in the last few years is that people are getting a lot more comfortable with any sort of mental health diagnosis, I think Clients will be very upfront. I have depression. I have anxiety.
And they will talk sometimes about things that family members are really going through that are tough. I definitely feel like there's more of a path toward this that will become extremely common and you're going to hear it all the time. And if you have it yourself, when you're comfortable, I do think that if you can promote that as a niche, I'm not just saying you, I just mean any organizer listening to this.
If you're comfortable with that, throw it out to the world, because I do think that there are people that are like, Oh, you will see here and understand me better than this person who, like Sarah was saying, who's been perfect forever and ever. It might not be that comfort zone. Right.
ADHD is going to be something that we're gonna have to talk about. A lot more because it is definitely like one of the things Capri and I talked about is either you have a legitimate diagnosis or you have a tick tock diagnosis.
It's just one of those things. I call it ADHD curious. That's amazing. Yeah. I love it.
CONNECT WITH PRO ORGANIZER STUDIO
We’d love to work with you. Send us an email (Melissa answers them personally!) or connect with us HERE…or check out our programs HERE.
If you’d like to watch our FREE seminar, The Pro Organizer’s Profit Plan—check it out here!