192 | Social Media For Professional Organizers: Real Talk!

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Written By Melissa Klug

One of the most popular topics we cover is social media for professional organizers—how to use it, when to use it, why to use it. There are a lot of misperceptions about how social could or should be used in our business—and, in my opinion, way too much emphasis on it as a way to get clients! This is an episode you don’t want to miss if you are looking for tips about social or are looking for permission to do it a lot less—or even if you love it. This episode is for EVERYONE!

My guest is Jen Mary from Everyday Style—she’s a great entrepreneur, a great stylist, and a great friend and business buddy. You can find her at https://youreverydaystyle.com for capsule wardrobes, style tips, courses and so much more.

You can listen here; read the full transcript below; or find us on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or anywhere you love to listen to podcasts!

Prefer to watch us on video? Check us out on YouTube:

LINKS FOR LISTENERS

“If you imagine standing on a stage, and you've got a microphone, and there's thousands of people in the audience, and you want to get the people you want to work with, walking up there and saying, “You need to color code your scarves.” — not an “amen” moment.

You walk up there and you say, “The weight of your things is crushing. Have you ever not wanted to have people over because you're so afraid they're gonna look in your closet? Are you tired of buying things constantly but you can't seem to get ahead?”

That's when that woman or that person goes, “yes.”

So instead of giving information, we need to really be talking about transformation. What will be different by working with you?

What are those pain points, those symptoms that people are experiencing that is so much more powerful than color code your closet.”

-Jen Mary, Everyday Style

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Melissa Klug: Hey pro organizers. It's Melissa and I am bringing you an Encore episode today, but here is why I am doing it. First of all, as we all know, our attention spans are very short. And this episode happened over a year ago, and I'm guessing that even if you are a rabid podcast listener, which by the way, thank you. I was at the NAPO conference in California last week and I had so many lovely, lovely, wonderful human beings come up to me and be like, oh my gosh, I listen to the podcast. Thank you so much.

So anyway, if you are one of those people, shout out lovely to meet you and thank you for always listening, but even if you are a very loyal podcast listener, We get so much information in a day, a week, a month in a year that it's impossible to remember everything. And this episode, I revisited it myself and I was like, oh my gosh, I forgot how many awesome gems are in here from my friend and colleague, so I wanted to repost it and I think that it will especially fit in with the conversation that we had been having lately about, please be you in your business. 

I want everybody to show their personality, to talk about what they do.

Let's not be afraid to talk about the things that we do working with ADHD or neurodivergent clients; working with people who have chronic disorganization or hoarding; working with people going through life transitions. If you do these things, I want you to talk about them.

And by the way, if you are an organizer that leans into the luxury market, I want you to talk about that. I want you to talk about exactly what you do for clients and how you do it and talk to them about it. And that is what we are talking about today.

My friend, Jen—lots of Jens here at Pro Organizer Studio, but this is a local friend of mine who runs a business called Everyday Style. 

She is a stylist for regular women. And she is one of the most brilliant business people that I know. I absolutely love her. And this episode is just filled to the brim with gems. We're talking a lot about social media in this conversation, and you guys know as podcast listeners, I have feelings about social media and how organizers use it. 

And my main feeling is—I don't want people to be overwhelmed by social media as the only vehicle to grow their business, because in many cases it is not the vehicle that will grow your business. So what we're talking about in this episode is how to use social media more effectively, and the way we phrase it as how to right-size your social media. 

So I am just going to go ahead and jump in— this again is an encore episode, but please, even if you listen to it the first time, listen to it again, I host this podcast, and when I go back and relisten to an episode, I'm like, oh my gosh, I totally forgot about that. That is genius. So, I did the interview and I forgot stuff!

And so even if you listened, I would love for you to listen again. Thank you as always for supporting The Pro Organizer Studio Podcast, and we'll get started with my friend Jen Mary of Everyday Style.

Melissa Klug: This is absolutely factually correct, one of my favorite people on the planet. My friend Jen Mary from Everyday Style is here with me. How are 

Jen Mary: you? I am so good. I love it when we can pretend. That we're working and we still yeah. Are gonna have the same conversation, like, we're productive and we get to spend time together.

So absolutely love this. Love it. 

Melissa Klug: Jen has been a guest on our podcast before and she and I met at a networking event years ago, like 2019, I think, and we just like totally hit it off. And she has a, business that does similar things to what we do.

We have analogous clients and I love her and I wish you guys all got her in person. I get her in person, you guys don't, but she just has the most creative ideas. And we were talking offline about something the other day and I'm like, girl, we just need to get on the podcast and record it.

So, yes. Yes. Can you give people the two second version of what you do in 

Jen Mary: line? Yeah, absolutely. So my business is called Everyday Style. We make. Daily style, easy for just like regular, everyday women. We don't work with celebrities and models and photo shoots. We work with women who are tired of hiding from their friends at the grocery store, right, who like dread date night because they have nothing to wear.

We really wanna bring the joy back to getting dressed so that women can live full rich lives. But we wanna make it really easy. So we have capsule, wardrobe guides and style classes and our membership. And then we have my podcast, which is the Everyday Style School, which teaches you everything your mom never did about getting dressed. 

Melissa Klug: I love what Jen does for people, it's called Every Day for a Reason. We are not talking about going to shop at Chanel unless you want to, which good for you, girl. We support that, yes, we, we support that, but we just want every day people to feel happy and confident in themselves.

But the reason we are having this conversation is because we have recently started to align on things that we see on social media and obviously if you're listening to this podcast, I'm hoping that you listen to a couple of episodes ago when I did an entire podcast about why social media isn't it for organizers?

And I stand by that. However, in that podcast we did, , we're not telling you to completely abandon social media. And so if you are going to continue using social media, and if you are going to do like, let's say one post a week like Kate suggested, we want it to be a really good post. And that's what Jen and I have feelings about.

We have feelings, right? Mm-hmm. , oh, 

Jen Mary: we have many, many feelings about social media. Many. We 

Melissa Klug: have so many feel. Well, lemme start out with, before we get into what we were going to talk about, I do want to hear from you, explain a little bit about your feelings on social media in terms of what we do as organizers or what people in your style network 

Jen Mary: do.

Yeah. So my style network actually trains stylists to be in-home one-on-one wardrobe stylists. So the parallels are definitely there, sort of how we work with people, what services that we provide. So I think there's so much to take out of what we talk about that, that your organizers can take.

I really think that everybody needs to right size social media in their own business. Yeah, that's it. I mean, we live in the digital age and when somebody hears about you or sees you somewhere, or you know, their friend tells them about you, they're gonna go to your social media, and you have to have something.

You can't have just nothing. It's just proof of life. But I really think that that every small business owner should dig into how much time they're spending on it. And what is it actually getting you? And I charged my stylist. To find out how much time are you spending creating social media?

Like sit down and batch content for a month. If that's one post a week, how long did it take you to do four? If you wanna do two, how long did it take you to do eight? Everything from ideation to scheduling it, all the creative, all the captions. How long did that take you? And then at the end of the month, go back and look at your analytics.

I, I don't know about you, but I'm obsessed with looking at my analytics on Instagram. And if you have a business or creator account, which you should, you can see there's just on every post view analytics, the, the thing that it will show you is how many non followers was your content delivered to. 

It is low. It is really, really low. And I feel like organizers and, and stylists, they're doing this to gain a following. They're doing this to get clients. But if it's only showing your things to people who already follow you. , what's it for? What's it for? And so at the end of the month you go, well, I spent 12 hours and it was delivered to five people.

Right. That's not a good use of time. 

Melissa Klug: Also, not only how many non followers is it getting delivered to, but thinking about how many of your actual followers Oh, yeah. Saw it. 

Jen Mary: Oh yeah. That's a depressing number, isn't it? 

Melissa Klug: It's, I mean, based on things that I've read, it can be as low as 10% of the people. Oh, follow you.

Jen Mary: I think that's a really generous number. Yeah. I think, let's look, let's look. I have my phone here. I'm gonna pull it up. Let's do a realtime data dive. We are 

Melissa Klug: using, as my husband frequently says, he's like, if only in our pockets, we had a computer that had all of the information in the world that 

Jen Mary: we could look up.

I . So I have, all right, so this post is doing 95% better than my recent post, so this is a good one. Right? Right. Let's boost it. Don't boost it. Tip number ever. Oh, please don't ever, let's view the insights. So I have, I don't know, around 7,000 followers. It reached 1,737 people. Okay. Of that 17 were non followers.

Melissa Klug: 17 people. 

Jen Mary: 17 people . Now, luckily that was like a post I took at Target of my new zebra jacket that I adore, and I put it up with a picture of my dog. But that took me no time to create, no time to, but it did take time to schedule and write a caption and all that good stuff for 17 people.

Did they even follow me? Yes. Did they, did they take the next step? I don't know. So right size your social media. 

Melissa Klug: Again, I would like to point out, and we, we talked about this in that podcast episode, it also depends on what you do for a living and what you're trying to sell. Your followers. Yes, Jen is selling global.

Reach, so she is putting out social media. And theoretically, no matter where you are in the universe, you can buy Jen's product. Yeah. If you are an organizer selling in-home local, regional organizing services, thinking about who you're doing those posts for and who is even going to possibly see it.

And if you're spending two hours on a reel, making it perfect. Yes. Versus spending two hours doing SEO on your website or working on your Google business profile. That's what we want you to look at. We both want you, to look at your data and see what it is actually giving you for the time that you're 

Jen Mary: spending.

Absolutely. Absolutely. I made my stylist take a little pledge at the beginning of the year, but they were only gonna do things that worked. Cause when you start cutting out things that aren't working you get a lot of time back. So much time. Yes, so much time. So much 

Melissa Klug: time. So that's why I wanted to talk to you because we were having a conversation about things that we see as business coaches that are done with the best of intentions. The people that we work with are just trying, they are trying to do the best thing, but we see things and we're like, Ooh, I wish that you would think about that.

Is that a fair way to 

Jen Mary: say it? Well, I think we say it a little differently. I think we say, please stop doing that , please stop doing Please. Just please just stop doing that. And, and we, we say that out of love because again, we want people to do things that work. Yeah. And stop wasting your time on things that don't, and, and frankly, a lot of the things that we say, please reconsider that they're actually hurting you.

in your business in the long run. It's not that, it's just like neutral. They're hurting you. Yeah. And so we want people to stop doing those things. 

Melissa Klug: So I would like to submit to the court Exhibit A of a thing that I, I see and I know you see it in the stylists that you work with. So again, the people that Jen is training to be stylists are in-home in a lot of cases.

Mm-hmm. in-home stylists. So doing the very similar things as organizers. One of the things I see a lot is we see d I y tips all the time. Yeah. So I, people feel like I need to tell people how to organize, but in fact that that does the complete opposite. So Yeah. I assume you see the same thing. 

Jen Mary: I do. I do.

And it does the opposite on a lot of levels actually. I mean, let's just talk about the first thing that you are teaching somebody not to need you. The more information you give them. And the reality is you could give them tips all day long. And we both know it's not about the tips. . Right, right. I actually said to a business consultant the other day, I said, it's not ignorance, it's overwhelmed.

 I know how to do things, it's just I don't have the time. Right. So in that respect, you could give 'em tips all day long and they still wouldn't be able to do it themselves. But what you're giving them is confidence that they could you're not talking about the fact that they, that it isn't a lack of knowing how to fold your sweaters or, you know, get rid of papers or whatever it is.

 They know that. But what you need to be speaking to is the bigger thing of why they need you, why they need you. And I'm gonna get a little deeper than I maybe you thought we were gonna talk about. Love it. But this, what's happening on a psychological, the actual brain chemistry level, is your brain has to make so many decisions a day.

Right. It takes in so much information that it is processing things really quickly. And we need to stop the scroll of the brain. Just like the graphic, which I know we're gonna talk about, stops the scroll of the feed. Your messaging and what you're talking about needs to stop the scroll of the brain from just taking in information and your brain is like, oh, don't need that.

Don't need that. That doesn't affect what I'm cooking for dinner. That doesn't affect what my finances, whatever. We have to interrupt that information doesn't interrupt that brain scroll. It just doesn't, what you need to put out there is things that move people. And a, a messaging person that I work with says she's always looking for the lean in.

Right? Like when you say something, what do people lean in? What do they lean into? I, when I was speaking on stage a lot, I would look for the head nods. I would look for them to look to their neighbor. Neighbor and kind of chuckle a little bit. And on social media, I'm looking for the amen. Yeah. The preach sister, every post you do that can be answered with an amen preach sister that is interrupting that brain scroll and it makes people, oh wait, what?

What is she talking about? If you imagine standing on a stage and you've got a microphone or a megaphone and you're talking to people and there's thousands of people in the audience, and you wanna get the people you wanna work with, going up there and saying, there's a sale at container store. 

That's no amen moment. Right. Walking up there and saying, you need to color code your. Scarves not an amen moment. You walk up there and you say, the weight of your things is crushing. Have you ever not wanted to have people over because you're so afraid they're gonna look in your closet? Yes. Are you embarrassed by what's under your bed currently?

 Are you tired of buying things constantly but you can't seem to get ahead? That's when that woman or that person goes, yes. That stops the scroll. So instead of TA giving information, we need to really be talking about transformation. What will be different by working with you?

What are those pain points, those symptoms that people are experiencing that is so much more powerful than color code your closet. . Right. Which I inherently disagree with anyway, but that's a different story for another day. 

 When I talk to my stylist about not doing so much informational content, everyone says to me, but they need to know I'm the expert. That's where this comes from, is that we feel like they need to know we're the experts, but our expertise comes from them knowing we understand the problem and we know how to fix it, 

Melissa Klug: and we hear things that are just in their head that they think maybe no one else hears.

Yes. That is what the actual magic. . 

Jen Mary: Yes. I was playing with ChatGPT yesterday, which is so hilarious. It is. But if you can go on ChatGPT and say, give me five tips for organizing a bedroom. Yep. It can give you five tips for organizing a bedroom. Yep. If you say, how do people feel about their clutter?

 How is clutter ruining their lives? What is being disorganized costing people? How is clutter ruining? Can't. 

Melissa Klug: No. Also, just really, really hitting on the actual problems our clients have. When you think about, you know, like if you're styling someone's wardrobe, it's probably about body image.

It's about how a woman feels about herself. If you have an organizing situation thinking about, Hey, how many times have you and your partner gotten in a fight because of the state of the house?

Yeah. How many times have you yelled at your kids because you stepped on Legos and broke your foot? Ha. Like all of those things. You're exactly right. Those feelings and those things that we know. How many times a day do you feel overwhelmed? We can give you a thousand things, but it's not about the tip, it's about the feeling.

Jen Mary: You've gotta be tapping into that. And that is what stops the mind scroll that makes people go, wait, oh, she's talking to me. How does she know? You know, when you have people saying to you, I felt like you were talking to me. Mm-hmm. , there's a sale container stories not talking to anybody, it's just talking.

Yep. But how many times have you and your husband gotten in a fight? Yeah. How many times have you bought bins and ended up less organized than before? Yep. That's one of those. Oh my God. She knows. She knows. And if, if I were only doing content like that, that's the only kind of content I would do. Yep.

Sharing client stories so powerful because you're sharing those experiences through, you know, through what, what someone else just like them has, has gone through. And it's frankly a whole lot easier than trying to come up with clever tips and to, to stand out. I mean, both of us exist in very crowded industries.

Very and. You know, there's plenty of TV shows that can teach you how to unclutter your home or dress yourself, but what nobody can do is get into your heart and into your mind, and, and understand why the transformation is necessary. . So yeah, please, please stop with the informational content. No information, no informational content.

Melissa Klug: Yes. One of the things that Jen, our founder says is inspiration, not information. Yeah. So, I like that you said it, you know, transformation. Mm-hmm. , not infor. It's whatever word you wanna use, just not the information. And just think about every single one of us who have been inside someone's home, the number of organizing books that almost every 

Jen Mary: client owns

Yes. So, or copies of Real,

Melissa Klug: real simple magazine that had all the January organization tips, the books. I mean, I have a picture that I have shared before, a long time ago about this giant pile of stuff. And at the bottom of it was Marie Kondo's, the Life-Changing Magic of Tidying Up. And I'm like, this is a metaphor.

Okay. Yes. Yes. The book from the bottom of the pile, you guys, so, yeah. it, there are a million resources out there that have information. Our clients are not able to act on that. And so giving them that feeling of like, oh, I got you. I can act on it. I can make your dreams come true.

Yeah, I can make your organizational dreams come true. That emotion is where you get people 

Jen Mary: without a doubt. 100%. 

Melissa Klug: I also just think about too, like, when I'm scrolling through w what do I stop for? Why wouldn't I also then go create some of that content?

I am never going to stop on a picture. And this is another one that you and I enjoy equally. An Instagram post that has 200 words on it. Yeah. They may be really great words. I'm never ever gonna stop and read. If I wanted to read a book, I would not be on Instagram. This is 

Jen Mary: very true, very true.

Very true. Even better when it's about that one, a 

Melissa Klug: carousel of eight different things I'm supposed to scroll through, all of which have many, many, many words. Yes. That's not a hot button 

Jen Mary: for me. Yeah. You know, it's funny because carousels are doing really, really well for me right now. Like, that is the thing that is doing well.

So I'm gonna keep doing them, but there's a, there's a guy I followed, the Steven Miller M-e-l-l-o-r he gives really good social media tips, really good, and he does a ton of carousels, but everything has one bullet point. Like one bullet. All of his text is, all the black runs are back. The black, the text is white.

It is so clear. And at the end of it you're like, oh, I, I got something outta of that. But, and it's funny, I, you know, you and I were talking the other day about people pitching opportunities as collaborations. Yes. That, that word does not mean what you think it means. Right.

, but I, I wonder like, who is out there right now telling people to do this? There has to be somebody because I've seen it so often. And I don't know if there's somebody out there right now telling people to put all the words on an Instagram graphic, because so many people I follow and I've started following a lot more small businesses and local businesses.

 Is there somebody out there telling people to do this? Because I, maybe it's always been there, but it seems that people wanna put all the ideas, the caption, the, you know, the all, all the details of the event, all the ways you can work with them, whatever it is right there on the graphic.

And that's not what the graphic is for. Right. If your message is, is getting the mind scrolling, to stop the graphic is actually getting the real scroll to stop. Just to stop. You could post one fluorescent orange square. and it would attract more people than your wall of text. A 

Melissa Klug: Because it's different , it's different.

It's different. Unique. And it makes you go, what's this? 

Jen Mary: You know, if you look from a copywriting perspective, in copywriting, the objective is just to move people to the next thing. Right? That's all it is. Just the picture moves people to read the caption, the caption moves people to do whatever it is. Comment, DM you go to your website, whatever it is. But if you lose them there, you have no opportunity. And I heard something the other day and I was like, oh, this explains it.

It was a podcast I was listening to with Nikki Rosh. I don't know if you know her. She's really good. , but she was talking about cat energy versus dog energy. Okay. In sales. Yes. So I don't know if you're cat people or dog people. I am both, but I have dogs. The other day my dog got out and he, he actually wanted to leave with the Amazon driver.

So I'm in the, and he's pretty new to our house, so I don't know if he's a runner or not, but I'm in the driveway and I'm like, come on buddy, come on. And I'm getting super hyped up and really excited. If you did that to a cat Yeah. They would run. Yes, they would run. They feel like, I'll show you. I'll show you.

Right. So Nikki talks about the here kitty, kitty language. Okay. Because to call a cat that got out, you would say, here kitty, kitty, come here, come here, and you would actually get quieter. Yeah. And do these little things to entice people. And I feel like that caption, the, the wall of text graphic is all about the dog energy.

Like I wanna tell you everything right now and I'm so excited about it. And this thing is amazing. You should. . It's very dog energy. 

Melissa Klug: And first of all, I love cat and dog energy. That's hilarious. Yeah. But I also like, if you really wanna take it seriously I would say what you talked about earlier in terms of, I wanna show you I'm an expert.

I think that's all it's, it's all part of that. Because I have to dump out every piece of information I have. Yes. So I make sure I feel like I've accomplished something and that, that is very, that's dog energy. I love that. Yep. 

Jen Mary: Yep. I think a lot of that just stems from imposter syndrome. You know, and there is no way to get over imposter syndrome except to work.

 Confidence comes from working. Yeah. It comes from experience. It comes from experiencing things and dealing with all different situations and types of clients and, and you also have more meaningful stories to share. The more you work. Yes. The more you just get out there and do, the more you actually have to say, and you can stop relying on these things to prove to everyone that you're the expert.

Melissa Klug: I wish I could attribute it to someone because I would love to, but I heard something years ago that said the only people who don't have imposter syndrome are actual imposters, like common men. So true, so true. Don't have imposter syndrome. So true. Are imposters like the only people who do, are those of us who are like, no, but I'm legit, you guys, I swear.

Jen Mary: Yeah, . Yeah. Well, you know, I, I hate to bash anybody, but there is that saying like, give me the confidence of a mediocre guy. Yes. Right, right. Yes. That's so true. Yeah. And they just put it out there. They're like, buy my stuff. And people are like, okay, I guess I'm supposed to buy yourself. And meanwhile, real experts and real people with real things to say are like, well, here are 87 tips of how you could do my job by yourself.

Yeah. And if you, if you still like me, you can call me like, Knock it off. Get that guy's energy. Get that guy's energy. 

Melissa Klug: And also the, the the other thing too, just if on the social media thing is showing yourself your authentic self is gonna get you people Yes. All day long, by the way, whomever you are, please don't try to be someone else.

Yes. Like, don't try to be someone that you're not. Yes. Right? Yes, yes. I like to try to be funny on social media. That might not be your jam. Please don't do that. If it's not authentic to you. 

Whatever your personality is. Yeah. Show that personality because that is what people connect with. And I see a lot of these social media kind of mistakes that we're seeing are, you know, your whole grid is just words or your whole grid. Ha. Like, I haven't seen you in nine months on your, like they're, you don't exist.

Yep. And I want to tell people, cuz I understand why people don't wanna show themselves. Sometimes totally get it. We don't feel great about ourselves. Sometimes our hair does not, we're, it's not having a good hair day. I have a thousand reasons why we sometimes don't want to show up. Nobody cares about that.

 We are our own worst enemy on that. Please just show yourself. That is who people buy from. That's who people connect with. 

Jen Mary: Yeah. You have to stand out in these overcrowded spaces. Yes, and when you can put a face to a name, when you can do that and make the person human, that is worth a hundred.

Really great. Stock photo thing. I mean, you know, we all use stock photos. We have to, I always admire these people who have like a photo shoot for everything. Yes. It, it's, it's exhausting to me. It's so exhausting to me. I have to sit and get my hair done and there's hot lights and No thank you.

Yeah. But if you don't have that, yes, you have to use some stock photography, but take two good pictures of yourself too. Yep. And pop 'em in there every once in a while. Yep. If you're not, you know, if you're not ready to be dancing on reels all the time, cool. Don't do that. But people at least have to see you every now and again, just, yep.

 It can't be a generic. You're not a magazine. On your Instagram profile, pick, it should be you if you're a small business. Yes. It needs to be you. Not your logo.

It has to be a nice, happy, shiny, smiling closeup picture of you. Yes. Ab yeah, 

Melissa Klug: absolutely. Are there any other things that you have been seeing recently under the please don't do that 

Jen Mary: category. Oh gosh, so much. I think one of the things I see all the time is every post is about, Hey, buy my thing.

Hey, buy my thing. Buy my thing, sign up. Buy my thing. Buy my thing. And again, it comes back to this idea that every post has to be a make or break. Yes. Right? Like if they don't read it now, they'll never, people know where to find you. They do. They do. But if it's like, baskets are on sale at container store, hire me.

Yeah. There's this disconnect where you're not telling them why it matters or what you can do for them or, or anything. It's just, Hey, buy my thing. Buy my thing. And I think we have to remember that business owners and. Instagram are inherently at odds. Yes. Right? Like my goal is to get you off of Instagram and to buy my thing.

Yeah. On my website. Instagram's goal is to keep you on Instagram. So there's always this, and you've gotta give Instagram a little bit of what it wants, of just inviting people to engage with you. Inviting people to, Hey, go check out my highlights. Keeping people on their platform rather than just buy my thing, buy my thing, buy my thing, buy my thing.

You don't make sales off of Instagram, especially in your type of, of, of model. Correct. I had one of my stylists, she's like, I found, forgot my first client from Instagram. I'm like, oh cool, tell me about that. And she said, well, her friend mentioned me to her. Then she went on Instagram.

Mm-hmm. . And she liked what she saw. So she called me. She didn't get that client from you didn't get a client from Instagram. You got a client, you got a referral. Go. Thank your friend. 

Melissa Klug: I got a referral, which is one of the most important places any of us get business. What you got from Instagram was what we say all the time is proof of life.

Yep. The person went to your Instagram and said, okay, they look like someone legit I would like to spend time with. Yeah. Or they look legit or they look whatever it was that, okay. I'm confirming that this is a good decision. 

Jen Mary: Yes, yes. That's different. That is very different. Very different. I think about Instagram growth, like pushing a boulder up the hill.

Yes. Right. I mean, there is a point you get to the hill and then it starts to roll downhill and get easier. You know, and I was following Brock Johnson from Insta Club Hub, and he's talking about this post got me 17,000 followers, like. Girl, if I get like three , I'm like, look at that. I'm amazing. This makes you realize that other people 

Melissa Klug: are in like different 

Jen Mary: stratospheres of

Well, yeah, but his whole business is about Instagram growth. My business is not about social media growth. It's not about that. And so just continuing to give value to the same people who are always following you, pushing that boulder up the hill one person at a time. Everybody who has a local in-person business has to understand that your business is going to drive traffic to your Instagram rather than your Instagram driving traffic to your business.

That's just how it works. When you don't have a humongous, and when I say humongous, it's like over 20, 30, 40, 50,000. If you don't have that, you are still driving people. It, it, it's, you're still pushing that boulder, so spend time offline gathering people on your email list that, that you can then send to Instagram.

Melissa Klug: I also know. I mean, I have actual data-driven examples of organizers who do have 20,000 followers. Who still are not, their clients are coming from Google. Their clients are coming from, their clients are not even with that amount of following. Yeah. That's still not the main source of their clients.

Or when you get to that following, you will have some people that are like, oh, I found you on Instagram, so you can probably, definitely, I got that client from Instagram. It's still gonna be a fraction of the people that are coming to them. 

Jen Mary: Without a doubt. I mean, if you're doing like local in-person stuff, how many of those 20, 30, 40,000 people are in your local.

Probably, I mean, how many of them could even work with you if they wanted to? So then what are you doing it for? Right. I think Instagram followers and any social followers, it's such a vanity metric. It is. It's such a vanity. And I know I've told you this story before, but it's still my favorite. I was on a podcast, she invited me to be on her show, and I looked at her Instagram.

I'm like, oh my God, her following me is huge and mine is tiny. And I then I got in my own head about it and I was like, why would she want me? I'm just this little thing, blah, blah, blah. So we do the podcast and then, you know, we, we end recording and we're chit chatting. Yeah. And she said, my husband tells me if my business doesn't make money this year, I have to quit.

And I was, Whoa. My bills, my bills are paid. . Yeah. All my family's bills could be paid . Like, we're fine. We're fine. And then my favorite messaging guy, especially for online businesses is Brandon Lucero. And he said that when he, when his business had their first million dollar year, he had 7,000 Instagram followers.

 Whose business do you want? ? Yeah. Do you want Absolutely. The one with 7,000 followers and a million bucks or 30,000 followers and no bucks. I'm gonna, I'm gonna go with the first one. 

Melissa Klug: That is one of the biggest misconceptions that we have in general about any sort of social media is like the person, who has 20,000 Instagram followers, she must have 2000 clients a month.

Yes. A team of 40 people, and she's making a million dollars a year. Maybe not. And we just, we associate because of that vanity metric. Yeah. We associate success with that following. And I have done comparisons of, you know, there are people I know in the KonMari universe who are masters the highest level you can get, which means you have worked with the, the most number of clients who have 200 Instagram followers, one of the most successful organizing businesses.

I know she has 249 Instagram followers, but I'm telling you, she's booked. all week, every week. It's Huh? There is 

Jen Mary: not that correlation, . No, it isn't. Do you think that comes from your following number being a public number? Yeah, absolutely. Because nobody knows how big my email list. Correct.

You know, my Instagram following is embarrassingly small compared to my email list. Guess which one brings me money? Guess which one grows my business? It's not the Instagram one. 

Melissa Klug: And with organizers, I can tell you cuz a lot of organizers are like, I only have a hundred people on my email list.

It 

Jen Mary: doesn't matter. Nobody knows nobody. Nobody. The number's not public. 

Melissa Klug: Nobody knows number one and number two, everybody that sends out an email, anybody who's regular on an email newsletter list, you actually generate clients out of that actual, yeah. You can have 20 people on your email list, but someone's gonna sign up with you.

It, it's, it, it's not about that number. I do think there's something to that public piece of it. 

Jen Mary: I think it is. Like, if I'm growing my email list, well that's not fun. No one can see it. Right? Yeah. Let's stop running a public race. Yeah. Who cares? And focus on numbers that matter. 

I think though, one challenge that people on Instagram have and I see this with my stylists, we market on social media like influencers do it is a completely different mo business model. Yeah. Now, mine is more in that sort of influencer space, right? Like all I do is digital stuff globally, whatever. But for my stylists, they're not influencers. Yeah. They don't even have L t K and you know, sort of the, the brand partnerships. That's where those influencers, they need a big audience because that is where they're making their money 

Melissa Klug: because they drive them to the links and they drive correct things.

We're not doing that same thing. That's a great 

Jen Mary: point. So we have to stop using the same social media strategy that they are. They need to be putting out constant content. Content. They need to be sharing products. They need to be doing all those things. Yeah. You know? . If you only have 200 followers on social media and you share a link, for my girls, maybe a pair of jeans at Nordstrom and you make $8 off that. It isn't gonna add up real quick. No. So I think something everyone needs to stop doing is using the same strategy that a business model that isn't yours is 

Melissa Klug: using. I, I wanna go back too to something that you said earlier about, you know, we're constantly asking people to buy things, and I get it.

 We want clients, we want, you know, I want our schedules to be full. if we are constantly asking people for things. Think about all the times per day. You're scrolling and you're being asked to buy something. Yeah. It's nonstop and it's exhausting. 

Jen Mary: It's exhaust, it's exhausting exhaust and 

Melissa Klug: I get tired of it.

And so just asking people a question, Hey, how's your week going? It could be nothing to do with organizing or Hey, tell me about the most annoying toy your kids have in their playroom. Yes. Tell me about the most annoying, do you have a drawer in your kitchen that won't open cuz it's got a potato masher in it?

Tell me about, well, I don't care what it is, like, ask them to tell you something, actually get some engagement. If that's what you are trying to do. You are trying to get engagement, you're trying to get people to connect with you. 

Jen Mary: So giving people the ball is really, really important. People love to talk, they love to talk about themselves.

They do. Right. So give them opportunities to do that. And you know, it all goes back to the whole like dating relationship. I met my husband on match.com. It wasn't, hi, I'm Jennifer. Hi, I'm Andrew. Wanna get married Like that. That didn't happen. And when you look at like the client sales cycle, some are very quick.

Yeah. . I was standing on stage doing a presentation and this woman walks up on stage with me and puts a note on the podium and I was like, oh my gosh. Like is my underwear showing? Like what is happening here? And I read it and it says, can you go shopping with me after this? That is the quickest sales cycle ever.

Right. . Right. 

Melissa Klug: She did ask you to get married that day? 

Jen Mary: She did. She absolutely did. And then I had a friend who for close to five years said, when I lose 10 pounds, I'm gonna hire you. Yeah. When I, and I was like, okay. Sounds good. That was a five year sales cycle. Yep. It was a five year dating relationship.

 Not everybody is going to be right off the jump. Most people are not. And I think if we can just. Be cool. Be a little more cat-like about the whole relationship. You can be in my space as long as you need to, to figure out if I'm the right person for you. Without feeling like you're gonna be harassed.

 To hire me every time we see each other. Every time you see a post, because it is just gonna get filed into not, I don't, I'm not, I don't need an organizer. Unless you have posts that tell people why they need an organizer, they're never gonna get there. Some people will, some people know it's a problem.

Other people need to be told 

Melissa Klug: also, I think that there is a beauty in, there's actually a reverse correlation of when you stop trying so hard. 

Jen Mary: Yes, exactly. It's the cat energy. 

Melissa Klug: You, if you constantly are selling, selling, and call me, call me, I'm telling you, if you were just chill and acted like you didn't care.

It's, that's another dating analogy. Act like you don't care. . Yeah. 

Jen Mary: but that's true that's that sort of desperation.

Yeah. Desperation. When you're not asking people to hire you all the time, they think, well, maybe she's busy with other people. Maybe she's just working, living her life. If you're bugging people to hire you every day and giving discounts every day. Can, can we have people stop that?

Please don't. Please. Please stop doing that all the time. It, it reeks of desperation and no one wants to hire the desperate girl. Yeah. 

The other thing, so can we talk about things they need to start doing for just one sec? Absolutely. Lean, lean into local, lean into local.

This is what differentiates you from every other influencer. On Instagram is that you are where you are. A carousel post that I encourage my people to do. Where to take your clothes after we did a closet edit. Yes. After I came to your house and we cleaned out your closet, where should you take your things?

And then I had them highlight five places, women's organizations in their community that accept clothes. And guess what? They follow you back. You build relationships. It's all of that. I also say snap a picture. Like, oh, picking up my coffee from blah, blah, blah. To start my day of organizing a long day of three clients means I need to be well caffeinated.

And you don't go to Starbucks anymore. Starbucks isn't gonna follow you and share your stuff and add you to their stories. And you go to local coffee shops. 

Melissa Klug: Also, just again, in the just do things like in the moment, it does not have to be planned in advance. So I have a number of times when I am in line at the donation place with a car full 

Jen Mary: of stuff.

Yes, yes. 

Melissa Klug: Like a selfie with the giant pile in the back of my car. And then I'm like, oh my gosh, doing another client drop off or whatever. It does not have to be complex. It does not have to be overthought. It can be as simple as, Hey, I wanna give people the idea that someone hired me to clear this amount of stuff out of their house, and by the way, a service I offer is dropping off all of your stuff at donation.

You don't even have to do it. 

Jen Mary: And if you're afraid to be on camera for a real. just film the drop off line, right? Like there are some My best performing reel lately, I was walking through a target parking lot. I put it over the sound of Taylor Swift. This is why we can't have nice things. Yeah. And it was me in the slush because you know, in Minnesota you can't have cute twos in the winter.

You just say goodbye. Yeah. And I was talking about how your style has to be practical for the way you really live. So I have just really leaned into sneaker boots and cute like weather boots, not just cute booties that I'm gonna fall on and break an ankle and ruin. And it took me all of five seconds to fill my feet walking through the target parking lot.

My best performing reel of all time was a target clearance rack. 

And it was the Justin Bieber. Immediately. No. Immediately. No. Oh yeah. Which is really cool. You what I need to sounds immediately. No . Yeah. And all it said was the clearance section is a problem, not the solution.

Okay. I mean, there's so much you can do, so much you can do. And I find the best stuff is really the off the cuff. Off the cuff. But leaning into local is something that every in-person business owner needs to be doing. Because when anybody in your community, in your area says, oh, my house is such a mess.

Oh, have you talked to Melissa? You need to call Melissa. Yeah. You need to be that go-to person. You know, I think somebody out there has the course called Five Mile Famous. Oh, I've never heard of it. Yeah. Your goal. And that's what I, that's when I talked to my stylist about your goal should just be five Mile Famous.

I, it's a little circle around your house. Yes. And get five Mile Famous. That means that you are going to those chamber meetings. You don't wanna go to, you are building partnerships. I encourage my stylist to build partnerships with photographers. With organizers, with hair people who is a good complimentary adjacent business.

Follow all those people on Instagram and just get five mile famous for a local business that's gonna do a whole lot more than you're complicated, overly styled Instagram feed. Yes. 

Melissa Klug: And I think that there's a misconception that, cuz Instagram used to be you had to be perfectly curated. You had to have a professional level photo shoot.

That's not what Instagram is anymore. 

Jen Mary: No, and 

Melissa Klug: that's actually another, that's actually part of the problem is Instagram is changing all the time. All the time. And therefore you're constantly on the hamster wheel of what do they want this week? A ten second reel. A one minute reel. Not reels at all. We're going back to pictures.

Nope. Now we're on carousels. That, like, that's part of the thing. But you don't have to be as buttoned up as you used to have to be.

Jen Mary: Oh, without a doubt. If I'm not perfect, if I don't have the right background, if everything's not a perfect puzzle grid, you know, Ooh, I don't wanna post this cuz it's gonna mess up my grid.

 I mean, the things that do the best are the usually the ones that really stand out. But I think there's an interesting point in that if you are so concerned about what the Instagram algorithm is showing right now, who cares? Yeah. I have always just put out the content that I wanna put out.

Understanding, my static posts aren't gonna get as much traction as a reel, but then reels tanked. You know, and I talk to business owners all the time are like, who? What's the best time to post whatever time you want? The time you're gonna do it, the time you're gonna do it.

There is not. If you post at 10:00 AM it's gonna go viral. And if you post at 3:00 PM no one's gonna see it. That's just not going to happen. So being so concerned about the algorithm and what it wants to, the point where it paralyzes you from doing anything is really a waste of time. 

Melissa Klug: I just think in general, remembering that you do not control anything that's happening on these multi-billion dollar platforms, and the rules are going to change possibly hourly.

Yep. And so just saying, I'm gonna spend the least amount of time I can to show that proper proof of life, authenticity, legitimacy, whatever words you wanna use. I'm gonna do a proper amount of time, but then I'm going to go control the things that I own. Yes. I own my website, I own my Google business profile, I own my email list.

I own those things forever. No one can take those away from me. My past 

Jen Mary: client lists. Yes. My relationships, yes, my partnerships. 

Melissa Klug: I told a story about, now I'm getting totally off, but I, I wanna say it. I told a story about my handyman, who's one of the best people on the planet. He texted me one day just outta the blue and was like, Hey, my schedule kind of cleared up this week.

Like, I, I really don't have anywhere to go. Do you have any projects that you feel like having me do? And I go, yes, indeed, I do. I hadn't thought about that. Yeah. In weeks, like I'm sitting here going like, I wish Kevin would get back to me. I hadn't thought about Kevin, right? Yes. And so Kevin texted me out of the blue.

I had him hired, he was at my house two days later with a full day of projects that otherwise he would've been sitting at home. Your past client list might be the most valuable thing that, 

Jen Mary: oh. Oh, you know, I don't know if you even know this, Melissa, but in, at one point in my career, I was the business manager for a hair salon chain.

A weird little, a weird little detour. And one of the things that we talked about all the time for a stylist to build their business, a stylist, the most important thing is pre-booking the next appointment. That is the most important thing, because then as you're growing, you're adding, and you're adding and you're adding, you know when I was one-on-one styling, I used to send the little reminder cards like, Hey, I'm more fun than the dentist.

 Does your closet need a refresh? But I would also trying to get them to book that mm-hmm. before I ever left. Like, Hey, all right, it's March. Should we be looking at October to TA to tackle the rest of your wardrobe? Yeah. And maybe, maybe they, not everybody did it, but enough did that. I always was looking ahead to a calendar that had something on it. There social media required, 

Melissa Klug: One of the things we just want to do, and I think you and I align on this, is we want to take the pressure off that people are putting on themselves. Huge. That this is how I have to do things and I must be spending 17 hours a week working on this.

And one of the saddest posts I ever saw was someone that said, I just spent two hours making a reel. I don't want you to spend two hours making a reel. I want you to spend like 10 minutes. Like I, I just want you to release the pressure off of yourself. 

Jen Mary: And doing things that matter.

Do things that matter. Spend that extra two hours. Could you have gone to a networking thing? Could you have, contacted past clients? Could you have written an email, A really good email? I bet you could have, because all of those things. . In our community we talk about RPAs, either revenue producing activities or even just results producing activities.

Mindlessly posting on social is not on my list of 10 of them. Right. I just have 10 things. Like if you're sitting there and you're like, I don't know what to do, I'm stuck. I have 10 things you can do. Yeah. And mindlessly posting on social is not one of 'em. Posting client successes is to me, it post that, post client testimonials.

You should always be getting those, sharing that people wanna know. If you want people to know you're the expert, let other people tell them, oh my gosh, Melissa changed my life. Yes. That's something I'd be like, oh, okay. Well maybe she could do the same. . Yep. Do you know 

Melissa Klug: what I posted one time that actually, this is actually one of the nicest things anyone ever said about me was she said, I've done the cost benefit analysis of you versus my therapist and you're less money and you get better results.

like, okay, that 

Jen Mary: would be a graphic, right? Your brand color with just big white things. Big white letters. 

Melissa Klug: You're exactly right. Post the things people say about you. Yes. Because that is absolutely, it's not about what you say about yourself, it's about what other 

Jen Mary: people say about you. You know? And, and if you have those comments, keep a Google Doc.

Yes. Or a spreadsheet or something. And then also when you're feeling terrible about yourself, cuz we all know as business owners, I can just come out of the blue like, I'm having a great day. Oh, I suck. No one wants me. You know? Then you can go again, , you can go to your Google doc, you'll be like, oh no, people do like me.

 Okay. I can keep going. Right. And then that to me is. In my business, we talk about 24 karat gold. Right? We have a lot of nice comments. I'm like, Hmm, I only want the 24 Karat gold ones like, I really like your capsule. That's like 10, karats. I don't, we're not posting post that 24 karat stuff that's like, oh, so good all day.

Every I 

Melissa Klug: finally feel good enough about myself to leave the house. I finally feel like I pictures with my kid, or I finally feel like people can come over to my house and I'm not gonna be embarrassed. Yes. Whatever those things are. And then you don't have to put their name on it. You don't have to worry that you're violating their confidentiality, ask their permission, whatever that works for you.

But put 

Jen Mary: the comment up. I do initials. And if you change the initials also, no one will know. Yeah. I mean, you know, I, I always only use reviews that are true. I'm not gonna make 'em up for myself. But I really respect my client's privacy. And if there's something, absolutely. Someone wrote me a thing about how it changed her marriage because she finally wanted to leave the house with her husband again.

I am not gonna be like, whoa, that was Lori Smith. You know nobody, Smith, green 

Melissa Klug: Avenue, Newport, Rhode 

Jen Mary: Island. Yeah. No, . Send her a message. No, I I, you, you can change somebody's name if you need to or just use their initials. But that is the kind of content that makes people go, oh, I want that. Oh, I like that.

It's the lean in, it's the amen. Those are what we're looking for. And along with that one thing that everybody should be utilizing, and I'm not, and after we finish this, maybe I'll go do it. , everybody should be utilizing the pinned post. Everybody. You can pin three. One should be like a, Hey, hi, I'm Jen.

Here's all about me. You know, if you've got something going on, if you are promoting something, if you have, you know, a, a spring cleaning special, whatever it is, there you go. And then one of those amazing client stories. Yes. So then regardless of what you're posting, people can always find that on your feet.

 And then, you know, if you wanna do a, a post about your spring special, go check out my pinned post for more. And you don't have to continue to say, buy my thing, go to my website, buy my thing, buy my thing, buy my thing. . 

Melissa Klug: And so what Jen is referring to is at the top you're allowed to pin three posts to the top.

So they see something they like, they go to your grid, they will see those three pins first. Mm-hmm. , no matter what you have posted and you can do, there are people that I get really creative with those I've seen really beautiful ones where the grid is very cohesive, but those pin posts like make one big thing.

I I've seen lots of things that I like 

Jen Mary: in that pin. That's great. It's really, so I know we don't have time for this today, but the whole like nine grid Yeah. Thing of a, a completely static unchanging nine grid, which is basically nine pinned posts. And you can do stories, you can do reels. You don't share 'em to your feed, but it totally tells your brand story and goes through.

It's a, it's a funnel. If I were starting out or if I had a local business, that's what I would do. To me, it's, it's more of a set it and forget it type of, of. Way of doing Instagram. It's so brilliant to me. And it puts social media in its proper place. What do we want it to do for you? We want it to show who you are.

We wanna show your personality. We wanna show people how they can work with you. We wanna show them why they should work with you. We want to tap into that local expert thing, 

Melissa Klug: We want it to be visually interesting enough to do what you said, which is stop the scroll. We want you to use it in a way that actually helps your business versus the way that you think it might help your business, which actually 

Jen Mary: doesn't. So , I just wanna share that little, the little clip that I shared with you the other day when that over text.

So I don't know if anyone has seen the movie Bee Movie. The, the cartoon with Jerry Seinfeld, where he's a bee, but there is a scene where he is trapped in someone's house and he's trying to get out and he bumps against the window and he goes, oh, ow, what, what was that? And then he just starts going crazy.

Ramming himself against the window going this time, this time, this time, this time. And I think a lot of us feel that way about Instagram or about social media. Like this is a post that's gonna do it. This is the one that's gonna get traction. This is the one that's gonna get clients this time, this time, this time.

That window is always gonna be closed to that be. Always, he's gotta find a different way out. So when you find yourself banging your head against the Instagram wall, I just want you to remember Jerry Seinfeld in the B movie and you can go watch the clip on YouTube. It's, it just makes me laugh. It's seven 

Melissa Klug: seconds long.

I think it's very short. It is very easy to watch. I will link it in the show notes because it is that good. When you sent that to me the other day, I'm like, this is brilliant. And I, it, it really is just like a simple description of I'm just gonna keep trying to do this thing over and over again.

It keeps not doing anything for me, but I 

Jen Mary: don't know what else to do, , what else to do. But no post, no one post is ever gonna be that viral moment. It's just, the reality is it isn't. And those informational how-to DIY tips I would bet a million dollars, that will never be the thing that makes you famous.

Melissa Klug: I need to add another, please don't do this. Just Oh yeah. Category of this. This one's extremely specific, but Jen and I did, sorry, different. Jen. Jen, the founder of Pro Organizer Studio, and I did a podcast that literally was all about you don't need before and after photos. It was an go back, I can't remember what episode it is.

I'll link it in the show notes. But there are some people that still really, really wanna do before and afters totally. Cool. Please do not put the before picture first, 

Jen Mary: please. Oh, interesting. The after 

Melissa Klug: picture first, because what happens is when you put the before picture first, I understand theoretically it makes a lot more sense to, to, you know, it's a it's a cause and effect.

Yeah. But what happens is when you talk about stopping the scroll, you're not gonna stop the scroll with a picture of an room that stresses people out. 

Jen Mary: Okay. So one of my tasks today, we just finished a two week closet edit cleanout, our annual closet cleanout. And I'm going to take the 10 most transformed closets.

Yeah. And do a reel out of 'em. Yeah. And you just changed that post for me, so thank you for that. I learned something new today. You're welcome. And 

Melissa Klug: I, I say this as a consumer because I will see them and I'll be like, that is a really unattractive space. And I understand. Then you scroll to the like, ta-da, this is what it looks like.

But my immediate reaction is extremely negative. And so again on this inspiration. I wanna show you the inspiration of what a stunning closet looks like when it's done. Yeah. And yeah, you should see what it looks like before. Boom. Here it is. Ooh. You can still remember that transformation.

Jen Mary: Yeah. You can even scroll back if you needed to. Right? I mean, you can watch it again. So my question for you is, , what do you do when people don't have like these Pinterest worthy homes? Do you know what I think a lot of people are, are hesitant to post photos? Mm-hmm. . That show how real people live. Yeah.

And I think we should all be showing how real, let's normalize real bedrooms. 

Melissa Klug: Absolutely. So it is interesting you say that I, did a post once about like, oh, you think a per a professional organizer is perfect all the time? No, this is what my kitchen looks like on Thanksgiving Day or whatever.

Yeah. I like that. I like that one. Yeah. If you do not have everything. Pinterest worthy, like you said, Instagram worthy. With the, you're just trying to show an example, a Canva, Unsplash, you know, there are just stock photos you can use that will still make the point of what you're trying to make.

 It's about the story, it's not necessarily about the picture, and you're not purporting that that is a picture of a house that you actually organized. Okay. I've actually told people before that, if client confidentiality is a big deal, you know, you can just say, I don't do, I don't show pictures of client houses.

Yeah. Because I just don't think that I like everyone to have their privacy. So sometimes I'll say, I'll show a picture of my own house, of a space that I feel, you know, compelled to share at whatever. But I sometimes you can use a stock photo and then just have a really compelling caption about what the point is that you're trying to make about that space rather than, this is a kitchen that I did.

Love 

Jen Mary: it. Question. No, that does. You know, the other thing I found a lot of times, women in my membership group will post pictures of their outfits and I really wanna share them, but, they're not taking pictures because they're professional photographers, so they're really dark.

Yeah. A little Lightroom goole. A long way. Yep. A long way. So yeah, run 'em through, you know, and we're not Photoshopping people . Right. We're not 

Melissa Klug: Exactly, it's not, we're not like pulling a Kendall Jenner and like , you know? Absolutely not our major Photoshop work on ourselves. But I just think that we feel like we get so caught up in, I have to show, this goes back to the what you were saying about I have to show I'm an expert.

I have to show all the spaces that I have done myself. Mm-hmm. otherwise people will think that I'm not good at my job and I just, I don't, I've never really done that and it's, and I'm just talking about my own organizing business. It hasn't hurt me. You know, I don't have people that are like, I'm gonna need 22 before and after photos, otherwise I'm not hiring you.

Yeah. I think it's another thing that we think we have to do it to be authentic and you 

Jen Mary: actually don't. Well, you know, when I was a one-on-one stylist, I never posted before and afters for a lot of reasons. Number one. Here's my client. Or worst, you know? And it is actually a person. It's not just like a space, it's them.

The other problem was my transformations weren't that transformational on the outside. 

Melissa Klug: That's the thing about organizing too, is sometimes those after photos aren't like a, oh my gosh, that's the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. But it was absolutely life changing for that client. Yes. 

Jen Mary: Yeah. I mean, I think if you've got something that's really amazing, the closet transformations in two weeks that we saw in our challenge. Holy moly, I was so impressed. Yeah. But. I think the bigger thing is how they feel getting rid of 11 bags of clothes. Yeah. Being able to get all of their clothes, getting, being able to get their drawers to shut.

Like, that's a big deal. And sometimes those things don't show up on camera. 

Melissa Klug: A lot of times they don't. Yeah. And so that's why, if you have something that's really, really impressive and your client is cool with you showing it, I love it. That's great. It's just, again, it's about trying to be able to capture what is that feeling that they got from that transformation.

 And also, yeah, that's gonna be going like way, way too deep. But I also think there's something about in styling or even in organizing, there's a self-esteem piece of, look 

Jen Mary: how awful it was. Yes, exactly. You look terrible. 

Melissa Klug: Your outfits were terrible. 

Jen Mary: Your house looked, you believe she left the house like that.

Melissa Klug: Is not empowering. And it's not a message that's why I hate the phrase New Year, new you. Oh, 

Jen Mary: don't even, 

Melissa Klug: mm-hmm. . Why, why? What was wrong with me before? Literally nothing. You know, like, I just think I, I wanted to improve myself, but I don't think that also makes us, need to say it.

Whew. This was awful before. I think it's like, to me, that's why I don't like doing it. Yeah. . 

Jen Mary: Yeah. I think that is a really good point. Really good point. Sometimes the transformations just don't show on camera. 

Melissa Klug: Yes. I really, I said this was gonna be fast, but this, that's fine.

This has been awesome. Thank you so much. This is how we roll. But just in general, for all of you, all we're trying to say is nothing is all good or all bad, right? We're not saying social media is terrible. It's not. It's a tool in your arsenal. It should not be the most important tool in your arsenal.

But if you are going to do it, please just think about what is the most impactful way 

Jen Mary: that you can do it. Yeah. In the shortest amount of time. Yes. Spend your time doing the right things. Only do what works. Only do what matters. Yes. And don't be the beat. 

Melissa Klug: Don't be the bee. That's don't be the bee that, that's the great thing.

 To your point, way earlier, we have these opinions because we want women to be successful at their businesses. Yes. You want to create successful stylists. I want to create successful professional organizers. 

Jen Mary: How many people quit? because they didn't get traction. They didn't get momentum, and yet they felt like they were working all the time. They were trying. They were trying. But you know, sometimes if you bang your head against the wall long enough, you realize it's the wrong wall. Yeah, it's the wrong wall.

And what's so sad to me is that a woman would let her dream of having a business go, give up, go back to having a job, take time away from her family, whatever those dreams are for you, that the reason you started a business, to let those go because you were playing in a system that wasn't designed to make you successful.

It wasn't. So, it's not surprising you're not successful with it, but it can be social media. I love social media. I love it. I think it's fantastic. We gotta be social. Are you liking people's stuff? Are you talking to your, adjacent businesses? Are you involved in your local community?

Let's be social about it and let's give people what they need to realize they need us, and that we have the understanding and the ability to solve their problem. Like you said, there's a million books. Everyone has them. It wasn't Marie Kondo's book that made her famous and successful.

You know what? It was spark joy. It was this feeling that everything you own should spark joy. And that set off a movement of people who started looking at their things in a different way. Yes, she did not say, you should fold your clothes like this. you should touch everything. Blah, blah blah.

Yes. All that is in there. Sure. But that's not what her message was. It was, everything you own should spark joy. And that is something that people go, yeah. Preach. 

Melissa Klug: Yes. And that right there that says it all, you have got to create that spark of that 

Jen Mary: feeling. Yeah. With that. And don't compare yourself to Marie Kondo cuz everyone's like, okay, I gotta sit here and, and come up with my own spark joy.

No you don't. Yeah. What you need to do is talk more. Cuz when you talk, the words just come. They do. One of my business coaches has this thing. When you're down on your business, just cast the vision. Just start talking about your business to everyone. Not trying to sell anything. Just cast the vision.

Yes. And if that doesn't get you. Quit, right? , like, if you talk about the impact you have on people's lives and you're like, Ugh, I can't, I don't wanna do this again. Just stop doing it. But you find the words, you find your message when you just talk more. 

Melissa Klug: I love it.

Is there anything that we have not covered? 

Jen Mary: There's so much we haven't covered, but you. I think we got so much. 

Melissa Klug: Jen, I, and I mean this, I kind of said it at the beginning. I get so much inspiration from Jen. I, first of all, we, she also offers a lot of things that are, services that are very helpful to people in our industry.

Like I said, we have very analogous industries, so please check her out. I love her as a human being and as a podcast content creator and just all of the things. So please go check her out. I will link everything in the show notes. So thank you so much for joining us 

Jen Mary: again. Oh, thank you.

And the feeling is so mutual. It's, it's just a mutual admiration society. 

Melissa Klug: This is a reminder to go network because if yes, we hadn't gone to that meeting, we would not know each other. 

Jen Mary: I did not wanna go. It was hot. It was like a hundred degrees and I don't like going outside when it's hot.

Yes. So I didn't wanna go, but I was like, you have to go. And it was the best business decision I've made, when I moved to Minnesota. So yes, go to the thing. People just go, , we know 

Melissa Klug: that it's not fun, but sometimes the magic happens, you know? But there are people who actually like it.

There are, I know. I don't know 

Jen Mary: who those people, they're weird. I don't either. I don't, I don't know. If you're one of those people I am so impressed with you. Keep 

Melissa Klug: doing it. It, but just keep making those connections because you just never know. They're magical. So 

Jen Mary: thank, thank you. Thank you. Bye.

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